177. Pornography, Is It An Addiction?

This episode features a candid and in-depth conversation on the complex issues surrounding pornography, its impact on relationships, and the psychological and spiritual dimensions involved. Experts share personal stories, insights on addiction, shame, and the cultural shifts influencing young men today. This in-depth conversation explores the complex issues surrounding pornography, AI relationships, societal impacts, and strategies for overcoming addiction. Experts share insights on spiritual, psychological, and technological challenges, emphasizing authenticity, purpose, and integrity.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

All right, what's up, Warriors? Welcome back. I got uh Rick here, Battlefield the Mind, and then we've got the other guys here who are gonna be hosting also for their episodes, too. We're gonna do a four and one. We got another guest who's jumping on in just a little bit. So if you guys are listening to JR or Ryan or Jordan stuff, my name's Rick. I'm the leader andor creator of the Warriors Way and Mindset. Uh I have the podcast Battlefield of the Mind. And I work in the psychology field from grief to growth. And I'm going to be probably playing the devil's advocate in a lot of these elements today for the conversation. So uh we run a large men's community. We also have the women's side and our couples side. So we work in the psychology world on our side, and that's who I am. JR? Who are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

So I'm J.R. Harvey. I am the leader of the King's community. So for us, I work specifically in the area of helping nice guys become good men. And the topic we're going to be diving into of pornography is his close up to home for me because it was an issue that I struggle with personally in different ways that affected my life. Um I would say negatively in specific ways to my my own self-worth, which is can be tied to the shame element that I'm sure we'll talk about as we get deeper into it. Um as well as my ability to connect in my relationship uh with my wife. So um yeah, that's what I do and that's what I focus on. And then Ryan, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, my name is Ryan Walker. I'm a follower of Christ. Uh been doing social media and mentoring, specifically on the spiritual and Christian side of things for the last man. I started content when I was 16, so five, six years now. Um yeah, I've never done one of these elevator pitches on a podcast before, so I'm not really sure what to add. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Cool. So we all work in different fields, whether it be nice guy camp, I'm in the deep psychology camp, and then we got Ryan's coming from the Christianity camp. We're gonna start in this one. Jordan, who's gonna be on just a little bit to look forward to it, he was also in a uh cult, an abuse cult that used pornography as a point of shame and torture to destroy who he is. And so when he jumps in, he'll tell some of his story. He's very candid about it. But this way, when this one topic, we have different views on this. And I think that's the benefit of this because this is a very tricky topic, it's a taboo topic. And so being able to have a taboo topic uh conversation, I want to have guys who are respected in the field be able to have this level point of view or perspective conversation. So, JR, if you want to start this thing off with like, okay, let's go ahead and get into the biggest issue or something that's very obvious, and then we'll kind of have our points of view or perspective on those.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah. Ryan, why don't you start us off? Because I think one of the things that um I experienced to a lesser degree, but um, I would say for probably for Rick and your generation, a a didn't experience this at all, but this ability to have access to everything on our phone nowadays, and for your generation from a very young age, and I think whether it this means access to information in general or access to social media, access to pornography, access to whatever, this is obviously affecting young minds in a lot of different ways. So I'd like to go in that direction and maybe just like educate us as guys that we didn't grow up with that, right? We didn't have that element of it. But maybe start on that path and what you're seeing with the younger guys, like how young are the guys when they first kind of get access to pornography, get access to the stuff digitally, whether you know for me it was like a family computer, right? Um, but now it's like they they have devices, they have tablets, they have all these different options. And um, how do you think that plays into everything that's going on?

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah, it's pretty different from when you had it, man. You had to go on secret missions in the middle of the night to watch it. Um, well, I got introduced to pornography at the age of seven by kids in my neighborhood. And like you said, I typically work with the younger guys that are like 18 to 30, and a vast majority of them, I would say, are exposed to pornography by the age of 10, 11. It's not uncommon to hear five or six or seven years old. There's a lot of different. Not just with pornography, but also just with social media. The vast majority of kids my age are been exposed to, for starters, more naked women than virtually any man in history has ever seen by the time he's like 12. He sees countless people that are in just some of the most degenerate situations, constantly comparing himself to other men. Umless standards for women. There's constant content that tells him how evil women are and how cruel everything is and how corrupt everything is. And I fell down those rabbit holes as well. I know I've spoken to both of you at a pretty good length about like the red pill content and stuff, because I found that when I was like 15, and that really warped my perception as well. So I don't know. That's such a big question. It's like there's so many different areas you could go with it. Um, but I'd say the number one more than anything, it it takes away is just the I think the dating and the way that you guys did it and how it was so different in the way we had it.

unknown 6:31

All right.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

I want to hear on this one. Okay, give me some perspective on like this is why it's different in dating, so I can see what you're grabbing on to.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

I think everybody's hypersexualizing everything now. I'm not gonna say everybody, I'll speak for myself and the people that I worked with. Um I hypersexualized everything. Even once I got to freshman year in high school, by that point I'd already been watching it close to a decade. And there would be nice girls that I would meet, and I thought they were cute and we'd get along, and there would be this voice in the back of my mind that would compare them to anything else I had seen in videos, mainly physically. And so it was like, yeah, this person's nice, they're great, but what if I can get something better? And then as I progressed through high school, there would even be instances. This was obviously before I became a Christian, I didn't grow up in a religious household or anything like that. But I would have opportunities to go on dates or hang out with women or even hook up with people, and I would trade uh the risk that was in that, and maybe the uncomfortability that was going in going out and doing that for staying home and just busting a nut at home and then just going back to video games or going back to whatever I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Alright, so we've got um conversations or even the concept of even conversations that would be hypersexualized to begin with. There's most likely, like you said, the objectifying or using element too, where it's going to be a part of like, I just see you as a thing that can be upgraded. Like, if I can get a better one, I'll just get a better one. Like I can like it's like a product that, like, oh, I can now get a better version. And if I can upgrade this product, then I'll look for the opportunity to upgrade. And then I I would imagine that, like, also if you're exposed to, oh, I can't pay the pizza guy, so I'll just fuck the shit out of them, like videos, then you're just having expectations that, like, if I like this girl, now she should just be immediately letting me just do whatever I want to her, because that's the expectation that I have on this relationship is that like, well, if we have any intimacy, it's going to be straight to like this. I can do whatever the heck I want, I can fuck you in any way I feel like it. Mentality, even though this girl's working on first kisses, you're still thinking about how you can fuck every hole she's got. And it's like, okay, wow, the expectations now are off the damn charts, and just our initial dynamic, and we were in high school, and that's a really tricky situation to be in, especially for the girl to go, like, wait, you think I'm supposed to do what? Like, all this fucked up shit. And the more exposure you have, the more fucked up the shit you probably want to do. What are your thoughts, guys?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I think there's an element for me that I experienced personally, the thing that I think resonated most with me was the like the objectifying piece of it. Where I didn't really know how to, nor did I see any value in like connecting with them outside of how I could manipulate them into sex. And I think this was this was um definitely partially ingrained into me from pornography. It was like this is how I view women, this is what they're good for, this is how they provide value to me. There was never any like real deep connections or um deeper conversations or elements to the relationships that I had as a young man, outside of what buttons do I have to press so that you have sex with me.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

So shallow transactional dynamics where like the only reason I'm talking to you is so I can use you.

unknown 10:45

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

And then that's it. I just want to use you. Want to come differently with you. That's it.

unknown 10:53

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Alright, cool. So it diminishes the value of human connection because human connection turns into transaction. There is no connection, it's just I just see you again as objectifying, like you're just a thing to use. It's like an upgraded sock.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

That's what we that's what you guys would see a woman in. She's an upgraded sock.

unknown 11:24

That's fucking dead.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

That is fucked up. That is fucked up. You guys are looking at ladies as upgraded socks. I just just a better sock to fucking come in.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Well, I think upgraded sock, yeah. And um, and maybe this is outside of porn related, but as I'm thinking about it, is also there's also the element of like the trophy of I got her, and I want to show all the other guys that this is what I this is mine, this is what I've um achieved in this way, which I don't know that it's tied to the pornography element of this, just more so uh the mindset that I was in at that point in life.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, I don't think that one's necessarily as linked to pornography, because I mean, like, uh how often would you be out going, guess what I get to fuck? Like, that was very rarely probably a conversation that was like you're walking around with. But if people see, like I think the arm candy thing works both ways for both men and women. That has nothing to do with pornography. Like being proud of who you're with and being like, This is my man, this is my woman.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Uh, it I don't know if that's necessarily pornography based, but it could also I you'd have to stretch it to make it so it's I think it's not so much I I I wouldn't view it in the positive way where I was at that time of I'm proud of like this is my woman. It was more so the just the external validation piece for me of like I need you to see that I'm with her so that you think highly of me because that's what's missing in me.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Like a jealousy thing, like an like an envy thing, like look how much better I'm doing than what you you you're doing, or look how good I am because I get to be with this.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

The latter is I want you to think that I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

So you'd be you'd be using her beauty as a trophy for your value. Correct, exactly. I I still still don't know if that's porn-based, but I think that there's there's a human element because the same thing with like anybody who would do an external or superficial, you know, judgment system of like worth there's uh guys with big muscles or girls with the with big boobs or models or all the superficial shit, name brands, all the stuff that people have used uh external means to be able to boost their their value for our like all time. So I I think the pornography thing coming in, it just might be just an excuse to be able to maybe have another element of what does it mean? Maybe change the meaning a little bit. Like instead of saying, Don't you see that I'm with a beautiful woman, or maybe the values that it takes to have a beautiful woman no different than a strong, competent, capable male for a woman to go have a strong, safe male versus I have a soft and beautiful woman. Like the element of the yin and yang for the couples to say, like, do you see that I got one of these? That's what I fuck. Um, that might turn a little twist on changing the value of it. Instead of saying I got a beautiful, amazing woman, it's like, don't you see how cool I am that I fuck something you wish you could fuck?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Right, exactly. That's a little twisted. Yes, yeah. Um, and then I think coming back to the other piece of it that you mentioned, Ryan, and maybe you can chime in on this a little bit too, Jordan, now that you're here, the element of it's easier and way less risky for me to just whack it at home than to pursue this date. To actually like put myself in the position where I could face rejection, I could face whatever it is that we um that we see as a potential risk. Well, Jordan, it would help if we could hear you first.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

No, we got nothing. Whatever your mic is doing, it's not doing it. Well, wait.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Harvey, you say that question again?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah, so this element, could you speak more on what you experienced of with um this element of like easier to not go on the date? Like, why did you see it as a better option? Because I think that's a real thing with a lot of younger guys and older guys, where it's like I can get what I want without having to deal with this.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to um what Rick said just a minute ago. There was no intention of having connection. So what did it matter? If I was just going just to feel good just for an orgasm, then what was really the difference? Like I I don't want to keep giving personal examples, but I'll give another one because it seems to drive my point home more. When I was in high school, there was, I can remember distinctly one time when I met um someone and we were hitting it off and everything was going great, and she asked me to come over, and I just flat out asked if we were gonna have sex. And she was like, I I think that's something that should wait until um you know we're actually in a committed relationship. And after that, I just never talked to her again. I was like, ah, well, what's the point in that? So that's where I was at. Just being real. That's that's what it was. Like it was just easier, but it was just there was one thing on my mind, that was it.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

So yeah, so I think what JR was saying is like, well, even the concept of being in her shoes, for example, because if you reverse rules, she's taking a risk to say, Well, I'm trying to meet a guy who's a decent guy, and you're like, Yeah, I'm not that uh if you want to fuck, then I'll come over. If you ain't fucking, I'm not coming over, which is good for her, by the way. Um, because it knocked her off from being objectified and being used as a thing. So good on her, but um, and good on you too, honesty. You rather rather have an honest asshole. So that's kind of good. Like, oh, I would never, and then you come over expecting only one thing. So better to have an honest asshole, save both of you a bunch of trouble. Um, but as far as like this is where I could see maybe just the objectification of it, but then it's like JR, you're talking about the eliminating of risk. It's easier, it's safer to have instant gratification without qualification. I don't get rejected, I don't get I don't get turned down, I don't have anything bad happen to me. I can just go home and have literally any flavor, any culture, anything I want. I can have anything I want, I can just type it in. Doesn't matter. Blonde hair, blue hair, purple hair, whatever. You pick your hair, doesn't matter. Pick your nationality, pick your culture, pick anything, and you get to have all it instantaneously. No qualification required. And there's no risk. You can't be rejected, can't be dumped, can't be made fun of, can't be turned away, can't be not good enough, can't be compared. You win instantly. No qualification, no skills, no game required. And so, Ryan, I'm listening a bad boy camp my whole life. So I get like, yeah, I don't care if you come over. If you're coming over, we're fucking. If you're not coming over, I'm good. I don't care. And they'd be like, oh, fine, I'll come over. Like, okay. Like, come over or don't. Um, but I was very clear with the intent. And that's where it's funny, is like honest assholes would do better than the nice guys. And they would. But better to have that. So JR, I I think I hear you as far as that goes. Um, Shelton, can we hear you? Can we hear you, Jordan?

SPEAKER_05 19:22

I was like, give me a test run. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, yeah. If there's any way to turn you up a little bit, yeah. Go ahead and try to.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Say when.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

That's good.

SPEAKER_05 19:30

Perfect. So for me, I had a little bit of a different experience with this one. Um, pornography became just a tool for disassociation more than anything. And so, kind of like JR was alluding to, I used it as a way to mitigate rejection, to mitigate kind of like playing the game, so to speak. I had very low self-esteem. Um, I didn't feel like I had any game. And then I also um I had kind of this weird justification system to where like when I as I got older in my teenage years, like when I was sexually active, I would use it as an excuse to justify, like, oh well, watching porn is better than like objectifying and using women, right? And that was like a cowardice way that I would use it as a justification. But um on this one, I I would say for most guys I've talked to that struggle with it, they get hooked young, and then it's it's a way to escape, it's a way to disassociate, and it just becomes their drug of choice. That that's what I've experienced most of it. Like, as far as the status thing and um exploring and comparing, like, I don't see it used that way as much. I see it more as like a tool to check out. I just I'm not gonna play the game.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I love this justification. I'm saving women from being objectified or saving them from me objectifying them by staying home and secretly objectifying them.

SPEAKER_06 21:07

It's clever one. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

I love this one. This one's really good.

SPEAKER_06 21:10

Clever bullshit, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I avoid rejection and I avoid making them feel objectified by rejecting them by objectifying them in secret.

SPEAKER_07 21:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

This is good, this is awesome. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 21:22

That makes no sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

I wonder why I wonder why this didn't work.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

Well, then like it's interesting too because even even like after I was I was in a relationship and like I was actively having sex, like I still sought out the porn because it was it was my kind of very unhealthy way of coping, way of dealing with stress, dealing with a lack of communication skills I had. Like it it really had nothing to do with sex, it was just eroticized rage and um disassociation. Like the things that I would watch in porn, I didn't like in real life. That'd be like me watching John Wick and be like, Well, I don't want to be a super assassin, you know, so I could I could watch. Watch like some you know wild porn and be like, yeah, but I don't want to do this in real life. Like it it has no reflection of like my sexuality. It's just, hey, I I feel bad. I'm gonna go to porn. I feel stressed out, I'm gonna go to porn. I feel all this anxiety, I'm gonna go to porn. I'm facing difficult decisions I need to make, and I don't really have the skills to regulate my emotions. I don't have good communication skills. Like, I'm gonna go to porn and I'm gonna escape.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I'm with you on this. Now, there's obviously like medical benefits to having orgasms, so we can I don't I don't think we need to go that far into that route unless you need to. But saying I'm doing stress relief, I'm gonna ask a real question for you guys to start fucking with the taboo of it. How many of you guys, um, when you would search through or watch your porn, had an emotional investment with the porn stars? Like, that's like I've been left.

unknown 23:48

Nah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

This is where it's really funny that this would call this would be called some form of emotional cheating, but there seems to be across the board guys don't have emotional attachment to it.

SPEAKER_05 23:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It's like after you end up just watching Bounce and Titties for a little bit, and then like 30 minutes later, go, what was the name of the uh the porn star that you were watching? You go, I have no idea. Like I wasn't invested in caring about who that was. I just enjoyed watching jiggly parts until uh my hard part was done.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yeah, that's accurate. I think I think that that's accurate for what we experience, but it's inaccurate for what's coming, for what I shared with you the other day.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

That's true. Let's save it because I want to build up to that, because that monster is an unbeatable monster. Let's go ahead and talk about just the judgments we have building up to that, because that's gonna be a beast. Um but as far as it goes, I just wanted to point out because women are are gonna probably be using this as a shame system. And Jordan, this is where I want you to jump in, is because you are in a shame cult that used this, and you can do your intro and let people know for who you are. But um the shame around your doing harm by using this element is where I start getting into the concept of is this really a pornography addiction or not? And this is where I'm gonna chime in as far as where I come in is does it mimic addiction or is it not addiction? Is a very interesting point of view. So for the shaming element of, well, you're emotionally cheating or you're cheating on me, uh tell me your experience, Jordan, because this was used to destroy you.

SPEAKER_05 25:32

Yeah, so I'll start on the emotional cheating side before I get into like the addiction element of it. So on the emotional cheating side, like if a man is cheated on by his female partner, right? What's the man's first question? Did you fuck him? Right? But when a woman uh gets cheated on by a man, what's her first question? Do you love her? Right? That's where that's the difference between it. Usually, like if a man cheats, he's like, you know, it's an opportunity for sex and a feel-good temporarily, you know, but when a woman cheats, like it's very planned out and it's strategic, and it's very emotionally entangled, right? So I don't believe that women can separate the difference on the emotional cheating aspect. It's like what I was saying, like with like the the action movie scenario compared to the porno scenario, it's like, hey, you were watching all these women do all this crazy stuff, and I'm not an acrobat. I can't compete with these women, but it's like, well, I don't want you to compete. This is this isn't just nonsense. It's it's entertainment, it's just it's nothing. Like I don't want these things in real life, but they can't separate that. That's what I experience. And so I I was in a sex addiction recovery, what I would consider a cult for many years. Um, I have done the best of the best programs. I've been, you know, associated with Pure Desire, with with Doug Weiss, with Jason Martinkis, with I mean, you name it. I've I with Patrick Carnes, I've read so many books. And the thing about sexual addiction is, is like, I don't think it exists in the way that it's it's marketed, and that's a key word, because it is marketed as a very specific and intense um sector of like the therapy community, right? Because they make it this unbeatable monster and then they they entangle it with love, they entangle it with objectification, with cheating. You know, you can hit all your major points and then they can market it as a specialty. But once you get the guy um a little bit desexualized, because it does mimic very addictive tendencies, right? Because it hits the dopamine circuit really well. Really well. Um, it's, I mean, most of the time, like porn's free. You don't have to pay for it. There is a lot of guys paying for it, but like it's pretty anonymous, um, and it has very low um physical repercussions as opposed to doing hardcore drugs, like your teeth are gonna start rotting, you're gonna lose weight, you know, like you're gonna be picking at your skin and stuff like that. Like, porn doesn't do that. Um, but what it does do as far as the addiction side is it it will mess up your brain chemistry. It'll mess up the way that your body produces dopamine. It it kind of hijacks your pleasure system. Um, you're getting false senses of like oxytocin and serotonin that mimic kind of physical connection or romantic relation. And then, like, there are some guys where like they have their favorite, you know, porn stars or whatever, you know, and and they they're like, oh yeah, this is my go-to. Like, I know that this chick does it for me or whatever. Um, but but there really isn't like an emotional attachment. And so when you get the guy to see, like, hey, why are you using this? What are you trying to run away from, or what are you trying to escape from? And you give them the opportunity to kind of address the wound, the symptom goes away fairly easy. Like pornography is not this hard to beat. And the people that they're really stuck on it, like kind of like JR was alluding to, is they're kids. They they start looking when they're eight, when they're ten, and they they don't have social skills, they don't know what a woman uh is like, they don't know how to interact, right? And so then they're building up these false expectations of this is what sex is, this is what love is, this is what women are, this is what they like, like I need to have a six-pack, I need to have a 10-inch dick, I need to be able to fuck for an hour straight with no breaks, like I need to, you know, take her through the ringer, but like that's not reality. And so the hardest thing for people that get hooked on porn young is reshaping their worldview and the belief system that they have around love and sex. So that's why that's why the addiction element is so hard to recorrect because it takes two key elements, right? It takes discipline, you know, like it's a choice. You're not an addict, you're not powerless, it's a choice, right? And so the other thing it takes is it takes exposure to the real world. Like you're gonna have to go ask women out, you're gonna have to have conversations, you're gonna need to, you know, probably have sex, you know, like see what it's like, and you're gonna realize these things that are happening and porn. Um, most women aren't most women aren't doing this. Like, you're not slapping chicks around, you're not fucking your stepsister stuck in a dryer. Like that's that's not reality. This this stuff doesn't happen. And once they can separate that, and once they can have some, like, you know, what you teach, grieving skills. Holy shit, that'll solve about 90% of the world's problems right there. Um, they start thriving. They don't need um accountability software that monitors them all the time. They don't need to turn their eyes every time at a woman's in yoga pants because they realize, like, all right, I'm a man, I'm capable of handling this. Women are objects, and porn isn't real. It's it's entertainment. And it's a very low form of entertainment, in my opinion. Covered a lot of ground there, so hit some points that you're you're seeing on that one.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Oh, yeah, you did cover a lot of ground, whether it's sexual addiction, what are the benefits, uh, what are the burnout elements of it, um, and then even the concept of attachment that you would have. Did you fuck them or do you love her? Uh, these are you covered a lot. And so it's like, okay. Um, let's just start with like the addiction element of it and then work into the loyalty, the ownership, comparison, attachment issues that come along with this. All right.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Can we can we uh add a piece? Can we talk about how it is um uh marketed in ways that affect the belief systems to keep people in this mindset of of I'm addicted to this? Can we do that like add that element in?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, yeah, kick it in. What do you what do you got?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Because I um no, this is I'm interested because Jordan, I know you see it very clearly. So I I I see elements of it, but I I I would like to hear your perspective on it.

SPEAKER_05 32:36

Yeah, so so what I experienced was um it it it's a lot of the recovery with addiction is it's based on two things, right? It's a loose adaptation of like the 12 steps. And so the first thing is like you have to accept this belief system that you are an addict, that you are a sex addict. You have a problem. And this problem that you have is destroying your family, it's destroying you, which there's a hint of truth to that, right? There's a hint of truth to the the habit that you form that you rely on, yes. And then the other element is like you have you have to continue to adopt this mindset. And if you do not, this is denial, right? And that's where it gets so tricky because guys that don't know the difference, they buy it, especially young guys, right? It's like, hey, you're an addict. You need us, and as soon as you stop relying on us, you're gonna lose your family, you're gonna be isolated, you're not gonna be able to do this by yourself. And they they hammer that home. And then the things that they sell to you, right? The most common um, what's the word, like cure or aid that they market is what? Accountability software. So you need to install like a covenant eyes, is what I used to use, or Truple. And it would take like hundreds and hundreds of screenshots of everything you're doing on your phone, and it would report it to like your accountability partner. And so that does something psychologically too. Like every time I would use my phone, I'd be like, oh shit, like what if an ad comes up and now I'm in trouble? Like, I wasn't looking at anything, but hey, a Burger King commercial came on and some woman's getting hosed down on top of a car. Why that's selling hamburgers, I don't know. But like it's gonna screenshot that. Or if I'm trying to use YouTube or I'm just scrolling through Google to see what's going on in the world today, there might be a kind of a scandaly picture on there, right? Like, I'm gonna get flagged for that, and now I have to explain myself. So that teaches you two things. Like, the thing that that teaches you is like psychologically, like I'm not capable of handling myself and I'm not in control of my own mind. And then it creates this fear of punishment, which man, that that got me the worst. Um, the other thing that they push a lot in the sex addiction community is like polygraph tests, which is nonsense. Like, that doesn't build trust. I oh my gosh, like we can do a whole other podcast on how retarded that is. But it's like even if you pass the polygraph test, now your partner is dependent on that test pass for her trust. She does not believe in you, right? So that doesn't build trust. And then if you don't pass it, or if you do pass it, um, well, he just believes his own lies. He's so deep in his addiction that he actually believes that he's not sick. And then, like, you could have full transparency with your phone, and then it's like, well, my wife went through my phone, she didn't find anything. He just got better at deleting it. You're just hiding it better. You've just gotten better because you're so sick, and then you see where it goes. It's like yeah, the biggest thing that gave me freedom was like, hey, you're free to do whatever you want on your phone. This is your phone, you make the choice. Do you want this or do you not want this? And after a while, it was like, hey, I I can do this, but I choose not to because I am in the pursuit of becoming healthy, right? Like, I uh there's millions of women in the world. I don't check out women. I mean, I might see a woman and be like, oh wow, she's pretty. Wow, nice. Like, that's a beautiful woman. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, women are beautiful, right? But you don't linger, like it's it's not a problem. And so I hope that answers that a little bit, but the marketing is territory, it's predatorial, very predatorial. And it's a specialty, so now they can charge you buku bucks because this is a very specialized form of addiction. Regular therapists won't be able to help you.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah, I think it's important to talk about because I'm sure a lot of people that will watch this are looking for help. They're looking for answers. And there has to be a level of awareness for where do I find the right answers and what is bullshit. And I think anything that goes into this element of, and and Rick, you can speak to this better than I can, but anything that goes into this element of you're an addict, and if you don't believe you're an addict, you're gonna lose your family, your job, everything that's important to you. If you don't admit that and continue to use us, use our product, then you're you're just doomed to failure and then just hit whatever pain points are in anybody that does this.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

It's gaslight manipulation for sure. Um before I get to me tearing it apart, I think I want to toss it to Ryan because what Jordan is talking about, that's Ryan's field.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Is where they'll use God to create a gas-lit system to control your identity to make it so you're always a problem that gives me repeat business.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

That's exactly what I was gonna say. There, it's a lot like the pharmaceutical industry. Like they don't want to actually cure what the illness is, they just want to mask your symptoms. Like about a month and a half ago, I went to the ER because I kept having very, very bad headaches. And after days, I couldn't get them to go away. Like, I'd be laying in bed, and if you guys have ever rubbed your eyes really hard, you see like those little yellow stars. That's what I was getting, just minding my own business laying in bed. So I knew something was wrong. And I went into the ER and all the nurses and doctors and stuff are rushing in, and they all asked me the same set of questions, asking if I'm on drugs, all this kind of stuff. And then they asked me, what have I tried to do in order to get rid of the headaches? And I told them all the same thing. Well, just in case it was a symptom of a deeper root issue, I didn't want to mask it. And they would all go, huh, okay, that makes sense. And then the main doctor, she comes in and I ask her, she asks the same question. I give her the same answer, and she looks me dead in the eye and goes, huh. Well, we're gonna mask it here. And I was like, great, that's perfect, thank you. And that's how a lot of it feels, especially with the accountability software. Um, I like what you said about this idea of trying to get you to admit that you're an addict. I'll have to call guys out on it that have been in like, I don't know what the groups are called, but it's like alcohol anonymous. It's like for uh quote unquote like sex addicts, and we're going through a call, and they'll keep calling themselves that. And I'll just have to call it out. And if you want to look at this from a spiritual uh perspective, the scripture talks about um taking God's name in vain. And I think there's many different meanings for that. But one of which is in the Old Testament, when Moses is talking to God, he says, Who shall I say has sent me? And God says, Tell him the I am that I am. God's name is I am. And I've heard uh a minister say this before, but when you are saying I am and then infusing that with, you know, whatever you say afterwards, you're you're infusing that with like the power of God, with the power, power of eternity, something like that. And yeah, I think for starters, even just the way that you speak, Proverbs 18, 21, the power of life and death are both in the tongue, you'll eat the fruits thereby of. Like you gotta stop calling yourself an addict. First of all, I don't believe it's actually an addiction. Um, at least from my perspective, accountability can help, but it needs to be people. Because sometimes the things that are gonna drive you back to begin with aren't gonna be because you saw some ass. It's gonna be because you like I can I told Harvey this the other day. I got extremely tempted to go back. You know how it happened? I was sitting trying to make YouTube videos, and I got so caught up on trying to make a good YouTube video that I was I started looking at other people's content and I was like, man, his videos are so much better than mine. Maybe I need to make something like that. Maybe I need to take a title like that and use a thumbnail like that. And after a while, I got so overwhelmed that it was just like, screw it. Like, I'm just gonna go back. Like I started to get tempted just from that. It's like that has nothing to do with with seeing ass. I just needed to vent. I needed to take some time off and just get I literally had to change it in my calendar. This is a side point. I had to change it in my calendar when I go to make YouTube videos now. It says make bad YouTube videos. Because I had to give myself permission to suck. So that way I didn't have to try and be perfect when I was making my content. But yeah, when I do, I do accountability with all the guys that I work with, but it's just direct, it's just us talking. You don't need apps or any of that kind of stuff. And maybe this isn't the most spiritual, spiritually wise thing to say, but the analogy I use for a lot of the guys with the blockers is imagine you are in a relationship and there's two versions of you and two versions of her. And in one of these dynamics, every time she goes outside, no guy looks at her, no guy hits on her, nothing happens, right? And she's loyal to you. She's loyal, that's cool, that's great. But then there's another version of your guys' relationship where every single time she steps outside the house, guys are hitting on her and asking for a number, and athletes pull up in Lambos trying to get her number and get her to hop in, and she still doesn't do it. She's still loyal to you. They're both loyal. But honestly, I would argue the second one's loyalty means more because she has the option to leave, but doesn't. In the same way, if you have to have blockers that block everything on social media and every possible website and everything you could possibly look at, did you actually change? Or are you just doing behavior restriction? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

So yeah, you gotta cover things a lot there, and that goes into a lot of elements of the the blocking or the choice. Um, this gets into cowardice versus courage, uh, being able to be authentic. This goes into uh Apollonian or Dionysus, this gets Nietzsche, gets into really big on um where the Apollonian version of the guys who would go towards order, which means like I never even put myself in that situation, which makes me a good person. And it's like, well, no, if you never are in any adventures and are never in a situation like this, you're not being brave or good. You're a coward, you're just avoiding and calling it heroics. Avoidance isn't heroic. But the Dionysus element is like orgies and fuck everything and get drunk and let's go fuck it, let's go fuck around and be nuts, wild, let's let's do everything, right? And like that goes into the extreme the other way, which you know this this is uh where you have to try to find your balance of I can walk the line and still be authentic. I don't have to go extreme this direction or fear it, but I also don't have to go extreme this direction and uh completely submit myself to it and be swallowed by it.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Can I hold more onto that?

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

It's kind of off of what Jordan talked about, where they teach you to almost be so hyper-fixated on the fact that you are an addict and not to fall into it. Well, there's a verse, Proverbs 23:7, that says, So a man thinketh, so is he. If I'm constantly thinking on trying not to sin, what is my mind actually on? It's on sin. And if I'm thinking about sin, guess what I'm gonna end up doing on a long enough time frame? I'm gonna sin. And then there's a verse, Galatians 5.16, that says, Therefore, if we walk in the spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. I know this sounds silly to say, but notice how the verse didn't say, if you don't walk in the flesh, then you'll walk in the spirit. That's what everybody tries to do. I'm gonna get so hyperfixated on everything I need to do to stay out of pornography, rather than just shifting your mind, in my case with what I teach with my guys, to Christ and what you're building and who you're becoming. Like just get your mind fixated on that stuff, and you won't think about the lesson pornography nearly as much. And therefore, it becomes easier and easier to get rid of.

SPEAKER_05 44:57

I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

I like that flip that you did there. That was good. Um, there's three different things there. That's the three completely different topics that can just go really powerful, too. Um, I want to try and knock this other one out, though. Also, I want to point out something that you did, just so you like this is just brother to brother. Um, when you were trying to do the YouTube video, and you started comparing yourself to how are theirs better than mine, and then you started doing an element of envy. How come he's better than me? You felt like you were losing. Your envy led to I need a win. I need to feel like this comparison is making me feel not good enough. I need an instant gratification that makes me feel like I'm wanted, desired, or winning. I needed a win. So you'll go to instant gratification without qualification to feel like a winner. And so it makes sense that you would go to a what's a category I can just win in right now when I felt like I was losing when I compared envy to this guy, then lust over here will make me feel like a champion again.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, that even reflected in the type of videos that I would watch. I don't know if you want to go there because once again, that's a whole different topic.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

I'll let it fly. I don't care. I'll say it.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

No, it's okay. We can do that on a different time. But as far as even just the reason I pointed out is because like again, guys may not be recognizing like, why did my behavior go to that? Like, why is it when I said I'm not as good as that guy, it made me go right to something else? Like, what's the link? It's like, well, I felt not good enough. I needed something to make me feel good, and that's your pleasure system. Your pleasure system now goes into the abuse of pleasure system. And that's Jordan, what you were talking about is now it goes into now you're an addict. Well, if you break it back down again, no, this is just more like I need a W under my belt. So this would be like saying, Women, if you feel like you're not good enough and you go shopping, since you wanted to go feel good because you bought something today that makes you feel pretty, you're an addict. You see how I added a judgment to a behavior that I wanted to win. I went and got myself a W. And that W now can be judged and shamed as you are now a shopaholic. You're an addict. It's like, no, I just wanted a nice shirt or a blouse or a purse or whatever I wanted. That makes me feel good. Well, it's the same behavior. It's just now who's judging or who's shaming. I want to point something out for the addiction element of it. And I'm gonna stay with this before I go into the uh the walk in the flash and the the tricks that people play, which was really good, Ryan. Um, is this an addiction? I also lean in with Ryan. Um I don't think that pornography is an addiction. And the people who have the the biggest issues are just like any other element that you have of people who do radical abuse, uh, which is under 7% of people who do like they're watching porn for like eight hours a day or plus. Like they're just watching it all day, and it psychologically and neurologically fucks them up. They get, you know, uh ED, erectile dysfunctions, and they have all kinds of issues, but that's extremes, and that goes for anything. Like take extremes on medication or do extremes on partying or extreme on literally fucking anything, and you start getting fucked up. It doesn't matter what it is, anything extreme. I want to tell you a survey I did with our women on the women's side, which really messed up is this an addiction? For anybody who wants to do control systems, this was necessary for me to understand, uh, is it an addiction or not? Because, Jordan, this was an identity that was forced upon you that you needed polygraph tests to show whether you are good or bad. And I needed to convince you that you're shamed into compliance. And so I have to see, is it an addiction or not? I asked the women, I said, ladies, if you found out that your guy used pornography four times this week, would that upset you? Unanimously, all of the women were upset. They're like, that would be upsetting, yes. I was like, so the action itself, not good. Yes, if he used pornography four times this week, I'd be upset. And I said, now what if you found out that all four times and every time he uses it, it's only images of you and videos of you two. You're the only woman that he thinks about while using this pornography, and you're his favorite porn star. Unanimously, that would be okay. That would be okay. The women were like, if it was only me that he's thinking about, then it would be okay. So that would that meant, wait a second. That's like me saying, you're an alcoholic, but as long as you drink with me, you're not. Wait a second, am I an alcoholic or am I not? Well, as long as you're drinking with me, it's fine. But if you're not drinking with me, then you're an alcoholic. That that's not how addiction works. It's not shame based, and it's not judgment based on how you're doing it. Is the behavior not good or is it okay? Well, it's okay as long as you do it the way that I think you should do it. Now that's very confusing for addiction. Because addiction is based now on approval of the way that you do it. No, it's either not healthy or it's healthy. And if you're like, it's only healthy if you do it how I say to do it, that's a control system. And control and manipulation isn't addiction, not based on like somebody else's opinion. So hold on a second. How can shame be an element of it's okay as long as you do it to just me? But if you think about anybody else or watch anybody else's nipples or butt or whatever, that's not okay. What kind of addiction does that? This is just one out of multiple things I started looking at. Is the women answered, it's only a problem if he does it like this. But if he does the behavior, if he jerks off four times a week, as long as it's to me, I don't care. So it's not the behavior. It's how the behavior is done. That's a control system. Alright, tossed into you guys just on just what's your opinion on just if this is an addiction, why is there a loophole?

SPEAKER_05 51:30

Well, it's because women can't handle they don't like competition. And so that's the biggest I've I've seen this in every way, shape, or form. I'll elaborate a little bit. They they cannot stand the element of possibly being replaced, right? Because they that it's all jealousy, it's it's envy, it's control. So what I found on the couple side is when we were in these groups, the women's side would be in comparison, right? And so they would all have their women's groups and they would hear every, I'm not kidding, every scenario of how a different way a man could cheat. Whether it's he's, you know, using a prostitute, whether he's accessing it through his son's video game to bypass the blocker, right? Like they became hyper-aware and hyper-fixated on every way that their husband or a partner could cheat. Like Ryan was saying earlier, that's what took their focus. And then they became a mother to their husband. And then they they resented their husband because they didn't want to be in that position, but then they wouldn't give up the control system. Right? And so um, even like the tactics that the men were using, it was highly rooted in shame. Like it was all rooted in shame and punishment because the belief system was it's like, well, the guy's gotta hurt. This has to hurt. That's the only way he's gonna stop because he's a little boy and he's addicted, and now you've become his mommy. Like, that's how the women felt, but they wouldn't give up the control system. Like, that's it. They they would become police, and then they would be resentful of the role that they refused to give up. It's sad, it destroys.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

It's so fucked up because it it's such a demonizing element of something that like you're always guilty, even if innocent. And women are taught to be hyper-vigilant on their safety, security by being aware of a compulsion he's absolutely going to do to make it so that you can prevent it and be safe. But the guys are like, I'm absolutely not gonna do that. Well, that's what somebody who's absolutely gonna do it would say. Well, like But I'm really not doing that. It's like, like a liar, that's what a liar would say, and now you're gaslit into being evil, even if you're good, and she has to protect herself against evil at all cost, which makes you now a villain without evidence.

SPEAKER_05 54:16

Yeah, the the other dangerous element of this is um it victimizes the female. Now the female becomes a survivor of betrayal trauma. And I think I think that is a way bigger issue than the actual pornography or the borderline addiction element, because once the woman is a victim, now she has status, now she has power, and then she's gonna want to guard that control system more. And I'm not trying to minimize, like, hey, if you're going behind your your girl's back and you're withholding sex or you're you're depriving her of your attention and pleasure, like, you know, there is a borderline element of like a little bit of betrayal there, you know? Like, why didn't you just come to me? There is that element, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Well, well, the the I gotta catch the piece you slid in. Uh on one element, if you're like I'm doing a behavior behind your back, I'm with you there. All right, I'm gonna give it a second. But if I'm doing a behavior behind your back, that's one thing. But you threw in depriving sex. How often would these guys be going, I'm jerking off so much to porn that I won't have sex with my wife?

SPEAKER_05 55:31

It it would happen.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Um, but but let's be real. Leg less than I would I would say that's a it's more rare than common. So I don't want to put that in that these guys are all they just fucking jerking off so much that they when the opportunity for actual sock upgrade shows up, they're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

No. Well, let's let I challenge that one. I I would challenge that one. Because I who creates the opportunities for the upgrade? It's typically not her. Like, who's the one leading the initiation of sex most of the time in relationships?

SPEAKER_01 56:11

I think in those dynamics, we would say I'm always available and open, but who's the one who has to say green light? And all you nice guy motherfuckers, you guys are like, please tell me it's okay. Like you're waiting for permission to initiate instead of like the guys who be like, I'm initiating, baby, we're doing this. No, no. Like with you on permission, guys. The men are the initiators, supposed to be, and like, and like, but and like women can also very much do this, though. Like, it's not like because like you got a your lady, if you got a good one, she's like, All right, can we pause this shit and get it on right now? Because the fuck, like, oh paused, baby. Like, you know, so healthy women will also initiate, but like for the guys and and the women, again, that's a manipulation trick that I kind of like, you see me just fucking pounce on the injustice already. Where I'm like, wait a second, so guys have to always, and as soon as we issue absolute, we're in fucking shenanigans. And I think that's where Jordan you were playing is in absolutes. So men always have to initiate, but if he's initiating, he's objectifying, but he's only objectifying because he's just trying to get around his bad behavior and cheating. And so the only way he can try to cheat is by initiating sex with you, so he's not cheating on you, and so now sex is linked to not cheating. So now the only reason you're fucking me is so that you don't just cheat on me, and now I don't want to have sex with you.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

I ran into that too, because there was a couple negative side effects of the woman becoming a survivor, right? A warrior princess. Because two two major things happened in my marriage. One was like my my ex-wife was she she bought into it and she became victimized, right? And so, like, now when I would initiate sex, I'm just using her as a masturbatory aid. And I'm like, no, I like I I love you. Like, I haven't watched porn for like months. Like, I just I just want to be with you and connect with you. And it's like, oh, what? I'm not your whore, right? And then the other thing that happened, which really fucked her up more, was like the type of sex that she enjoyed, um, it wasn't enjoyable to her anymore because she bought into the idea of like, hey, I don't want to feed your addiction by fulfilling your weird fantasies or doing the things that I enjoy and you like. Like, even things like, you know, like just like dirty talk, or if you want to pull some hair or something, or like not to get too graphic, but it's like now she was like, I feel guilty for even asking for the things that I like because I view you as an addict in this disgusting, sexually depraved pervert. And that dude, that fucks up so much stuff.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

And it destroys the women, it does it. It destroys it destroys them. And this is, I think, where you're getting at. I'm just gonna triple tap this thing. For all the women who think that this victimhood is your promotion and it gives you authority to make it so you're keeping yourself safe and secure, they're not understanding. They're destroying an element of themselves that they can't get back.

SPEAKER_07 59:26

No.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

And women don't recover from this. You think you're protecting yourself, you're actually just demolishing yourself to try to call yourself safe and secure while you're throwing your soul in the fucking garbage to have control and destroy connection, intimacy, and love. And you call it safety and security, which means their love system becomes inverted. And this means they cannot do love because they're they're linked to control, and control kills love, but they can't let go of the promotion they got from victimhood for control. Otherwise, they will be taken advantage of, used, and abused. And this means the only way they can stay safe is by being the abuser, otherwise, they'll be abused and they don't break out of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

This destroys their life, they they don't break out of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:21

Oh man, here's the other part about the addiction element, right? Is a lot of the things that they teach, and it's not just in like the pornography realm, it's in a lot of this modernized, like feminized version of mental health awareness that we're teaching people is like you should be so vulnerable with your partner. You should you should rely on her to work through your insecurities and your traumas and all your shit. And like, I I I did a nine-month program. We were going to a workbook, we were going through books, and like they had this exercise where like you go to the most 10 most traumatic events in your life, and they're like, Well, share it with your partner, see what she likes. And man, as soon as I tried sharing this stuff with my wife, she she like she tripled down on the shell that she went in. She's like, I'm not your fucking therapist, I'm not your mom, I don't want to hear it, I don't want to be a part of it, I don't want to be responsible for it. And I'm like, I'm just trying to share my I'm just doing what they told me to do, and now you resent me more for it. Like, I've lost more trust, I've lost more safety, I've lost more respect, and like I can't get it back, and you can't get it back either.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Correct. And she was right.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

On that one, she was right. She was correct. She's like, everything in my soul says I'm not the person you're supposed to be doing this with. And I think this is the part where like you and I, all of us are in the field here, till I try to go like, we're against that.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:50

Don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Because if you're teaching things that destroy the people that you care about, like there's evil in this world. And if you're doing the Machiavelli inversion of taking something that could be beneficial and twisting it into a control system that you call healing while you demolish who that person is, like, there's there's a reckoning in your soul that's going to come and get you. There's a karma that exists in this.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

Because those who prey on the wounded for personal benefit, you are not holy, you are not good, you are not decent. You are the the parasites of this earth.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:29

Well, when you put that filter on, too, like if you would have introduced me in this podcast, like, all right, sex addict Jordan Shelton will be joining this podcast. Like now, every time I say a sentence, you're gonna run it through that filter first. That happened to my wife. She's like, anything I would share, she ran it through that filter first. Okay, this is this is coming from an addict. What do I know about addicts? They lie, they manipulate, you cannot trust them, you're not safe with them, they will prioritize their secrets, they will prioritize their their wants and their needs, their predatory. Like, so anything I would say, even it like it destroyed authenticity. It really did. Like, you you can't recover from that. You don't get it back. Once it's gone, like it's it's done. You will not get that back. She will never see you the same. It's it's sad. And most of these and I wanna I'll give a little bit of grace. Like, I don't think these people who are teaching these things have ill intentions, but the research and it's not there. It really isn't. Like, we're we are not as far as we think we are on this stuff, and we overcomplicate it. Addiction is not that hard to beat. It's really not.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

We've we've done it together and we've done it with hundreds and hundreds of guys. It doesn't take us that long to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:58

No. You know why? Because you remove the shame from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

And remove the the grief element that you're trying to get away from.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

Isn't that crazy? Take shame and grief, blessed are those who mourn. If we put those together, all of a sudden they start becoming healed and they can now heal others. But if you create an identity around this, the I am, like Ryan said, if you take the I am and then add sexual addict or you know, porn addict, or drug addict, or alcohol addict, if you add in your identity to that thing, fucked. You're fucked. You will be what you will, whatever you call yourself.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:46

Ryan, I want to ask your perspective on this because I was in a Christian uh like 12-step adaptation, and like they were so good at dismantling and cherry-picking scripture, they'd be like, Well, if your right hand caused you to sin, cut it off. If your left high causes you to wander, pluck it out. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Listen, read the Sermon on the Mount, motherfucker. That is not what they're saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:05

You need to be you need to be the Corinthians' husband, Corinthians 5. Like, you you better get on that shit. Like, what is right? Do you want to burn, dude? Like, what is wrong with you? Like, and every time I heard that, I was like, God dang it. Not only must my wife hate me, but now God hates me too. Like, fuck, dude. Like, I don't now I want porn even more because I don't even know where to go with this shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

You need win.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:27

Yeah. All three of you have been married, so you have a much uh wiser and much more experience in some of the things that you're talking about. But one of the things that keeps popping to my mind as I was just listening to you guys go back and forth is there's a verse, I don't know where it's at, I think it's in Corinthians that talks about um not withholding yourselves from each other. And I think one of the things that I hear a lot from, you know, when people come to me, oftentimes they DM me on Instagram. So we're going back and forth. And a lot of times it seems like sex got weaponized against them, which definitely isn't helping either. Like they didn't, I don't know, fold the laundry or something like that. So they're not getting any. And it's like, well, first of all, if we're looking at this from a biblical view, God made sex and it was something that's supposed to be a gift for both of you. It shouldn't be something that's being utilized or weaponized against the other person, men or women. Um, and I think that might drive it some as well. And when they're what do they mean when they talk about the Matthew chapter five of gouging out the eyes and cutting off the hands? Does that mean everybody should be walking around blind and stubs on their hands? Like what you're gonna take that in the literal sense? No, no. I I have used that verse before when I'm talking with people, but I just use it in like a practical way. Like, obviously, if you have, I don't know, you had posters in your Room of like crazy little lustful stuff. Yeah, maybe you should take the poster down, you know, it's pretty obvious. Stuff like that. But I don't does that answer the question? I kind of went off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:03

I I I think um in this area of the withholding, it's it's a really important piece. And it's most normally the withholding is done by the women. It's weaponized by the women to control because they're the gatekeepers. But what I was hearing you guys say earlier, and what I wanted to chime in on um with this and hear your thoughts is I think there is an element of what I could see is if I am using porn and masturbating, I am much less likely to engage. I am much less likely to initiate. I'm much less motivated to initiate or resolve any of the core elements of the relationship that are leading me to have less sex in my relationship as it is. So I think in this way, when men are using pornography while they are in a relationship and masturbating often, it is a version of withholding that he will do. Yep, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

Fair enough. Fair enough on this one. And let's let's go point with the ladies on this one. If you're giving all your cum to some other woman, even if it's not directly to her, but I'm offering my cum to that woman right there. My seed went to that woman in my mind. I'm with you, with you, ladies. Hey, wait a second. I'm with you. You're giving your seed to the idea of another woman. That's in this is there's an element too, and this is this gets kind of fucked up if you think about it. Ladies, this is gonna be funny for you guys. You guys are find it vulgar. I give zero fucks because you guys do this shit. So have you noticed ladies generally, unless they have a disorder and want you to pee on them or something, like ladies generally don't want almost any other fluid that we have on them. They don't want boogers, they don't want uh tears, they don't want pee, they don't want poops, they don't want vomit, they don't want earwax, they don't want any other fluids. I don't want to spit on them. Like these are all disrespectful or gross. But for some reason you can come on me, and that's totally fine. You notice that's the one fluid that that one's okay. Why? There's an element of you earned that.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

There's an element of I worked for that one because of my beauty, because of my skill, and because of my ability, you desire me. That's a byproduct of effort, enthusiasm, and connection. There's something there that I got this from you. I earned that one. You don't earn the other ones. The other ones you're not earning. But that one, I earned that one. That's mine. And there's an element of like achievement and success and victory that women get because it is the most power that women have is when we're sexually vulnerable. And I mean, like while having sex, how much are you in protection mode? None. You're the most vulnerable as a man during sexual activity. We're not protecting, we're not providing, we're not defending, we're not getting stronger, we're not working on potential. We are completely at the mercy of the woman. The woman has the most authority over us when we're in sexuality mode, sexual mode. And it's interesting that that one fluid, that's the seed, they earn that. They get that. That's when they have power over us, and they fucking do. And they're well aware that there's power to that. That's no matter how tough the dude is, we are the most vulnerable when sexual. That's our highest vulnerability and the most authority a woman has. And you give that to some other bitch. You just gave that thing, that's mine, and you just gave that to some other woman. I'm with you there, ladies. I'll give you that one, JR. I'll give on that one. The ladies have an argument. Like, fair enough, I earned that. That's mine. And there's no other fluid that I give a shit about, but that one's my fluid. And so if you're just throwing it away to some other chick, there's a good argument that we can have that you need to give me that. Now, the other side, the 1 Corinthians 7 5, now it gets into the withholding intimacy. Wait a second. If you own that fluid, but you're not taking advantage of, you're the only one who's supposed to have that fluid. And you don't take advantage of that, you don't use that, you don't connect to that. That's not yours. You're not relieving the pressure of that fluid. But he's not allowed to give it to anybody else. But I don't want it. At some point, isn't this kind of a really fucked up like slave situation where I own you, but I'm not going to treat you well?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:08

I won't decare. You know what they're you know what they told me?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

What's that?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:14

They're like eventually you'll just have a nocturnal emission.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

Oh my god, so fuck you. Yeah. So wait a second. So you're just wouldn't that be cheating then?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

No. Well, technically, that that's where they should align, because they can't you'll have a you'll come in your pants. You have a wet dream. A wet dream.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

You have a wet dream. So you'll come in your dream, but didn't that mean like you were fucking playing with someone in your dream then? Something in your dream made you come. And so in which case you were just dreaming about cheating, and now you're gonna wake up with like some shit you didn't have any control over, and now you just cheated on her, and she should be punishing you again.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:48

Yeah, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

So how you're seeing the cycle of insanity.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:53

Yeah. How they marketed that was like, um, well, she's not an object, and sex is not a need.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Yes, it is, motherfucker.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:01

Well, you're not gonna die. I mean, it's you're you're so here's here's the science, right? Like your your balls will swell up and it will hurt. Like, blue balls is a real thing. Like, if you do not ejaculate for a long period of time, uh the swelling does go down eventually. Like, dude, the longest stretch I went, like, it was probab it was probably like I would say like a solid seven months. I did I did not ejaculate at all. There was no masturbation, there was no sex, there was no nothing. And like after a while, it does level out. But what it does is like it it kind of kills a part of you. Yes, it does. And like JR was saying, it's like you you just you shut down that portion of your brain that wants the connection, right? That wants the pursuit, that wants the reward, and then it does the same thing for the woman. So like it fucks both of you up.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:53

It fucks you both up.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:54

It really, it's not helpful. I don't think it's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

It's abusive. Yeah, I think it's abusive. Uh I would put this under actual abuse. Um, because if I say you have to be committed only to me, but then I won't respect our commitment. Like, that's abusive. That's that's no different than the guys objectifying a woman. Like, I want you just so other people can look at what I've got, but I don't want to do anything to be good to you. I just want to own you. I think it's the same thing. It's this is an abusive dynamic, it's a controlling and and abusive dynamic to try to take advantage of something good from somebody and then do a misplaced criticism of making them feel bad for feeling for being good. That's fucked up. And this is no different than punishing a woman for being beautiful or punishing a man for wanting connection. That's fucked up. Like, and that's where it gets into. Can I go ahead and kill something with you, Ryan, with uh the Matthew 5?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:48

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

So this is where people will use the adultery definition, um, which I think was mistranslated. I had to go deep on like the adultery part, which is like the the sin, the less sin that we're talking about for pornography. And in Matthew 5, was it 21? No, it's uh yeah, it's uh no 27-ish. Okay, Matthew 5, 27. Uh, I'm just gonna go off of like the the this is the a home in Christian standard, which is very similar to the King James, which I also have here, uh, where it says, You have heard it, you have heard that it is said, do not commit adultery. But I tell you, everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away, for it is better to lose one of the parts of your body than your whole body being thrown into the proverbial hell, which is not the actual hell, but even if it was still. Now, I had to look into this because if that's correct word for word verbatim, which it's not, just so you guys know, if it's correct word for word, that would mean that if I see some chick in yoga yoga pants walk by and I'm like, I can see literally every fucking crevice of this girl's ass, I sinned. I'm like, well, that's that's a nice ass. I don't have to talk to her, I don't have to do anything with her, I don't have to get her fucking socials, I don't have to do anything with her. I go, I enjoyed the symmetry of that shaking body part. And they're like, oh, well, then you have sinned. Gouge your eye out. You have already sinned. And I'm like, if that's true, that even seeing somebody makes you bad, that would mean God really designed us poorly because men are visual. And we're visual for multiple protection reasons for safety and security. We can read microexpressions or intentions with small amounts. So men need to be visual, both in the way that we see and we're attracted to, but also for protection purposes, because we catch on to shit women don't catch on to because we're protection and visual the way that we are. Women are more auditory, we're more visual. So I had to research this because if that was true, by definition, then, if I were to, let's say my wife, I meet this woman, and she's wonderful, but we're saving ourselves for marriage, right? Let's say we're dating each other for two years before we get married. Let's give ourselves some years here, right? The whole time I'm dating, I find this woman emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and physically attractive. She's beautiful to me in every category. And I find her very sexually attractive too. She's physically very beautiful, but we're not doing anything. But by this definition, if I'm looking at a person who is in a consensual, agreed-upon, loving dynamic. But even me looking at her is a sin. And I should rip my eye out for my looking at a woman who is consensually with a relationship with me who approves of the behavior. By this literal definition, I am a sinner because I find someone I love attractive. That's in fucking correct. So let's research. I grabbed in on the message and other versions of translation to go, let's find where this fit differently. So if you go to Matthew 5, and then we go to the same concept of adultery, the translation got into something more it's more direct. And the same thing for the Ten Commandments of don't commit adultery. I had to look at all the other commandments except for two, are don't be a cunt, don't hurt other people. But two of them didn't make any sense. The Sabbath and adultery didn't make sense the way they were translated. Those didn't make sense. So this one made it very clear, uh, going back to 27 here. So you know the next commandment pretty well. Don't go to bed with another's spouse, but don't think that you preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by bust even quicker than your body. Those oogling looks you think nobody notices also corrupt. And this is from like the message. So this is like translating the Bible into what did it mean? This got into adultery is when you weaponize sex. If I use sex to destroy marriages, if I use sex to hurt children, if I use sex to pim women, if I use sex to prostitute, if I use sex as a weapon and hurt people with it, if I want to fuck people against their will or use them and hurt them on purpose, now we're doing harm. And doing harm is very different than seeing yoga pants. Intent to do harm. I want to destroy their marriage. I want to ruin a relationship, I want to destroy a child for pleasure, I want to rape somebody. Now I'm doing harm. And if I'm doing harm, that's adultery. So I just want to take away did you have an intent to do harm? No, I just watched this bitch run by in her skin tight outfit, but I'm never gonna talk to her, I'm never gonna hurt her, I'm never even gonna fucking meet her. Like I just noticed that happened. And these ladies today love attention, which they go to the gym wearing painted on outfits and wonder why anybody's looking at them. I'm like, you're wearing, if you're wearing your underwear, you'd be wearing more than you're wearing now. Like, this is one of those things where it's like, well, then what is adultery? It's not simply seeing somebody, it's wanting and having intent to do harm creates that element. And so this is where women will go, if you even look at somebody you've already sinned, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. If I intend to sleep with someone's spouse, if I intend to do harm to that person, if I want to fuck them and destroy relationships or use them or destroy them in some way, I don't know, you I'm gonna hurt them. Now you're doing adults.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:10

When because less is is birthed in the heart first. I wanted to ask you on top of what you're saying right there, because I like that. When you say use somebody, would you also throw in when people um have sex solely for the intent of just having sex with this person?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

So it's such a gray area because it gets into intentionality. What is the intention? If it is uh consensual attention uh intention, like we both agree we want to use each other for this. It's hard to say that you're doing intentional harm because you're both agreeing upon whatever the terms and conditions are. But if one person feels like I'm obligated or forced into this situation and I don't want to do it, but I feel like I have to, for some reason, now the intentionality versus the obligation starts becoming fuzzy. Like if I don't do this, then they're going to hurt me. If I don't do this, they're gonna leave me. If I don't do this, then I won't be good enough. If I don't do this, I won't get attention. If you're using a negative intentionality to try to fulfill like some inadequacy or insecurity, now we're in an unhealthy uh collaboration. But if it's two people that like I completely agree and consent that we're fucking a night and there's no problems, then I don't think that that would fall under the same category. Is it morally correct? It's really easy to argue, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:33

Yeah, nobody's getting with you. I I follow you. Yeah, that's not the idea of uh adultery. Yeah, I'm with you on that for sure. Because if you're gonna talk about lust, you also have to be able to make your definition apply to something like pornography. I don't have to lust, or I someone doesn't have to be around me in order for me to lust after somebody. Like I lust over the people I've watched in pornography videos. I think also with lust, one of the things that's worth bringing up is there's always a level of dehumanizing that happens on some level. And I think that's probably a pretty big distinction as well. Because if I'm being honest, in like my past relationship, I was very much already a believer, and I definitely had the intention of waiting until marriage. But if I'm being real, and I know there'll probably be some people if they're Christian, they've been here before.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:18

When Matthew 7-1 for all those people, Matthew 7-1.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:23

When uh when you're in love with somebody, and even though that is your intention, having sex with the person you love doesn't feel wrong until afterwards. I mean, you might feel guilty afterwards, don't get me wrong, but in the moment, like it feels great.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:39

So I do not feel guilty having sex with somebody I'm in love with.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:44

Can I right can I build on that a little bit with the concept of adultery? You know what's funny is like we're psychologic, especially women. Holy shit. Like women's uh erotic novels, which is porn for women. They love they love literary and story-based porn, like um all the shows that they watch, like all the all the big hits with the women, they're based on adultery first. The office, Jim and Pam. Uh, they cheated. They cheated first before they got the relationship. Yeah, The Bachelor, Temptation Island. Like, what the fuck? Like, women are constantly being conditioned to like, hey, he's with somebody else first, and you're the woman who stole him away because you're perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:30

Like, isn't that fucked up? Well Jordan, I don't know. Maybe you guys have experienced this firsthand because you're all married, but I've heard of multiple people who once they got married, more women hit on them. Yes. Like once they were wearing the ring, more women gave them attention.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:45

It's a game.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:45

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:48

Yeah, you know, I think I think it I I I would see it more from the opposite scenario that you said, not them trying to steal someone else's man. I think the scenario that I see more often, which I think applies in in the office, it applies to the notebook, it applies to the Titanic. Pretty much every one of your movie would just go through the whole gauntlet of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

The competing male element, too, is the the competing males over the one female is important. Twilight, 50 shades of gray shit. You start getting into these things where like the the apex or the alpha males are also both competing for the same woman, and the women love the Angela version of Dwight or Andy. Like you're getting into like you said, the office. So it's like they're they're dueling over me, and women like that. They like I want to be the prize, but the same thing with Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey. The prize is the most fucking boring character in the book. Like Bella Swan, by definition, her superpower is Buzzkill.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:01

Mouth breather.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

Yeah, she's just not interesting. No, and the Apex billionaire chooses the receptionist secretary who's just trying to get a base level job. What was unique about her? Nothing. She was as basic as you could be. And this is the Cinderella story thing is I'm left just for being, but I don't have to be anything interesting. So I'm just kind of triple tapping on like the fantasies along with this, all seem to follow two alphas or apexes fighting over me without qualification to be anything unique other than pretty. And that doesn't even have to be very high up. Sorry, JR, go ahead. Yeah, I know you were in it, but like I could the element.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

It's it's the two men. Right? It's the two men, and that it's always a love triangle. Every movie that I've ever gone to see with my wife or a book she was like turned into a movie, there's a goddamn love triangle where it's one woman and two men. And she eventually decides the one that we look at and we're like, that dude's pretty fucking solid. Like that looks like a great fucking guy there. The guy who's high, like you look at the notebook, it's like this dude is like accomplished military, he's wealthy, he's handsome, he's honorable, he's like wants to give her everything. He's so like proud to have her and be with her. And she's like, you know what? This guy that I had a fling with while I was in high school, like when I was on summer vacation at my parents' leg house, I met this guy at a carnival, and um, I think I'm gonna choose him instead of you.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:47

Yeah. Then what does the guy get? He gets to take care of her when she gets all cybers.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:53

Yeah, but that's love. That's what love is, and that's a very interesting thing because if you reverse that story and have the male do like he's with the amazing girl and wants to go with the girl he used to fuck around with a long time ago, that's a cheating story that makes him a dirtbag. But if it happens to a woman, it's romantic. Like, but cheating women is not good, you know. Katniss Everdeen, same fucking thing. I'm like, this dude's way better than this dude, but you're gonna cheat on this guy with this guy? You're not a great one. Like, I was watching the Hunger Games, like, this is not a good person, like she's a shitty human, and for some reason that's considered like the best spot for the ladies to be competed with, like, to get them, and they like that. That's emotional cheating and straight up cheating, and yet somehow justified. But if a guy even sees yoga pants, he should be punished, but you're fantasizing. About being with other guys. You're Team Jacob or Team Fucking Edward. Are you thinking I want to be with the I want to be a necrophiliac or bestiality? And it's a tough decision for you. Because if you looked at it, what women fantasized, the top five fantasies were surgeons, billionaires, pirates, vampires, and werewolves. That was their highest five fantasies that women were looking up. All of them considered an apex, the cursed prince from Beauty and the Beast. And that's where it's really funny as you start seeing, like, well, you know, Bell from Beauty and the Beast, oh, she fell in love with him for his heart. And like, well, he was a cursed prince. And once, you know, broke the curse. Oh, he could take care of her forever. But what made her unique? What made her special? If you look at her, she's pretty and she reads books. I'm like, well, maybe this pretty girl should have read a book on Stockholm Syndrome because this guy was her captor. She was a prisoner in his house, and he was not cool to her, and she fell in love with him as her captor. Maybe she should have read Stockholm Syndrome shit because that's not a good relationship, and we call that romantic. But it was a cursed prince who was abusing her, and that's a beautiful love story. Dufuck?

SPEAKER_06 1:30:17

Gaston was the good guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:20

Gaston was the good guy.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:21

He just wanted to give her kids and provide for.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:24

He's an egomaniac, the sociopathic, but but even still. Like it's like, wait a second, these are weird terms that are going on with these qualifications for what make women feel like they're the prize. I'm I'm with you guys on this one where the cheating element doesn't make you good. But you want to control the cheating element to be the one who gets to choose to cheat so you can have your options. But if any male ever does the same behavior, he needs to be shamed, destroyed, publicly humiliated, reputation demolition, judgmental demolition, and women will go straight to controlling narrative on social media immediately for accusations, for uh the um assumptions, for creating narrative, for omission of information so they can tell the truth is only from their point of view. And guys just don't put the effort into controlling narrative the way that women do, which makes us immediately look like the villains because they can omit the fact that they were doing the cheating, but he wasn't fulfilling a need that she had to take out the garbage or make more money.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:26

You know what's you're like, wow. You know what's interesting about that? Like uh Ryan, I don't remember, I don't know if you've seen this. Um, I know J. R. and Rick, you did uh that Louis Thoreau documentary about the manosphere. Like I didn't watch it, but I know what it is. So so like three of the main guys, like they all had girlfriends and they were in like really weird romantic dynamics. Like Jay Waller, his his girl, like she 100% consensually agreed, hey, I'm not gonna be married to you. I'm not gonna be in any legal tie or an entitlement to you, but like I will accept you providing for me, giving me the house, I'll have kids with you, you can go fuck whoever you want. Um, but as long as I'm taking care of, I I don't really care about the sex.

unknown 1:32:14

Isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:16

They would argue it's love, but it's a transactional dynamic completely. And in the entire predication is on transactions. To the point, too, where he's like, I will never commit any of my finances into your existence. But as long as you're somebody I can use to fulfill this element of transaction for me, then I'm happy to pay for it. If you'll give me children and be readily available for me to like take care of all of my things at the house and take care of this, if you'll be the servant in this area, I'll provide for you. But I'm not going to be committed to you any other way than financial, to where if you ever do some bullshit or we split, I get to keep all of my provisionary element and you can go kick fucking rocks. So make sure you stay compliant while I have no restrictions. That's the financial deal that we have here. And her being superficially driven to where I want the status, I want the house, I want the home. Her safety security is predicated upon being transactional. And so she agrees because it's a better life in all these other categories, but it does remove true love. They'll call it love, but it's all transaction. It's all predicated upon uh financial agreements. Because he can't remove his financial provision and she'll stick around.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

But I'm like, they'll take that deal. And I see this with women a lot, especially a lot of these modern women. Um like this idea, the idea that I I see is women are becoming a lot more masculine, and but they don't want to accept the competition of the masculine dynamic, like we were just talking about. Like, if you want to fucking be a man, like everybody's gonna try to fuck your partner, and you're gonna have to fend that off.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:07

Jordan, just before we go into this inevitable three-hour rabbit hole. I got like I'm almost gonna have to pause it because we're gonna get away from pornography on this one and get it. Fair enough. Fair enough. Like, we're gonna go toward a direction that takes us so far off topic that we won't come back.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:26

Yeah, fair enough. We'll save that for the next one.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:28

Save it for another one. Like, that's a different day because like we're gonna get off topic. Yeah, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go pee. You guys keep going. I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:38

There is something really interesting on this that I that I found. Um, because I don't know that women are becoming we say women are becoming more masculine, then we gotta define like what is masculinity and go down that that whole path. And then what I believe is actually happening is women are becoming what they believe is more man-like or more masculine. And what I mean by that is there there's like interesting study. I think that they um they took like 200 women through this experiment where they had a uh control and and um uh another group where it was like, we're gonna give these women low doses of testosterone, and we're gonna give these women placebo. We're gonna tell everybody we're giving you testosterone, though. Very interesting how the women who were on low doses of testosterone became more agreeable, and the women who thought they were on testosterone became more aggressive and more argumentative, and I think there's this gap of how women view men as well as how men view women and what we actually are in the elements of us, like what testosterone actually does to us, not only in the negative ways, but in the positive ways, and also what like what it's like to be them, not only in the negative ways, but in the positive ways. I I think there there's always this game that we're playing where forever it's been this game of like men need to learn how to treat women. That's the culturally like uh every man in the past few generations, if not longer, is like you need to learn how to treat women right. Right? And and you go down this path of like men are have grown up learning how they're supposed to treat women, but never what to expect of them. And then the opposite true is true of women. They've grown up being told what to expect of a man, but never how to fucking treat one. And they also have this misconception of like what a good man is if they've never seen one. Which, by the way, there's not a lot of good men out there. Yeah. Just like there's not a lot of it's a people problem. There's not a lot of really good women either. Why? Because it's fucking difficult to achieve. It's success in all areas of of life. And if we talk about being a good person, now we're talking about all the elements, being successful and balancing all the different elements that it takes to do that, which could be arguably the most difficult compared to being successful financially, being successful physicality-wise or in a sport, like in all these other just one trick pony types of areas. You talk about being a good man, being a good woman, embodying all that it takes to do that, very difficult. So then if you've never seen one, if it's never been modeled to you, you have a misconception of what a man and a woman is coming from that. And I think a majority of people are coming from that perspective. That's why that study was so interesting to me, where it's like the women that got the testosterone placebo became what they thought testosterone would do them, became more aggressive, they became more argumentative. The women that actually got the testosterone became more logical and reasonable.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:43

I like that a lot. And that's interesting because I didn't think that comment through before I said it, and I I want to try not to make an ass out of myself, but I think I think that the modern state of pornography and feminism are very closely tied, right? And here's here's where I'll link this together, right? Like, so our our modern state of pornography comes from Alfred Kinsey from the Kinsey reports in the early in the like what was it, like early 50s or something like that, like post-World War II. And Alfred Kinsey, what he proposed to push on the American public was that human beings are sexual in nature. This guy was a bona fide pedophile. He was proving that babies could reach orgasm and different bullshit like that, right? So you know who was Alfred Kinsey's biggest fan? Hugh Hefner. Hugh Hefner started Playboy after he read the Kinsey reports, right? So at the same time, you have guys like Edward Bernays and his nephew, Sigmund Freud, right? Um, getting women to start smoking cigarettes, framing them as uh freedom torches, right? They're getting women into the workforce, right? And so, like you said, it starts to distort the roles. Now women are in the workforce, now both parents are out of the home, now pornography is readily available, and now the parents aren't there to teach the kids what a good man are and what sex and relationship looks like. So who takes that role? Pornography.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:13

This one's this is a rabbit hole that I you know I can recrant on this one pretty much. Feel free because why don't we go in a different way?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:24

Let's go down the path of all right, we've talked a lot about the issue and um you know the the fallacies of addiction. Why don't we uh go a little deep into what are the strategies and techniques to help people that are listening? Like, how do you get out of this thing? How do you defeat this enemy? Beautiful. Can we go in that direction?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:48

Yeah. Yeah. So, Ryan, this is your field. Like, what's what's top top most successful tactics that you've encountered?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:57

Well, let's let's look at it all four sides. Mind, heart, body, spirit. So, Ryan, which element would you start with in your field? Mind, heart, body, or spirit would you start with? You muted yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:12

Oh, there we go. Went to P, and then I never unmuted when I came back. I wouldn't really break it down that way. Um, I know that's how you and Harvey normally do it, which I'm totally fine with. Normally, I think the first place to start is simply just awareness. Becoming more aware of yourself, aware of your own flaws, your uh limiting beliefs, all this different kind of stuff. And I really it's broken down when I do uh coaching on this kind of stuff in two pieces. One, which is awareness to find like a lot of times what the core wound is in the first place. I found over and over again a lot of guys, I ask them this question of have you ever gone back to pornography when you weren't feeling lustful? Like you just you almost made yourself in the mood so that way you could go back to it. And almost all of them always say yes, which to me points, well, it's a coping mechanism to avoid feeling some other type of way. A lot of times you're not actually a lustful man, you become a lustful man to avoid being something else. And so you find that core wound and you heal that. And this goes into what Rick and Harvey uh and you are very good at in terms of finding uh those core wounds and healing those. And then I think the second half is just building a life you don't feel the need to escape from. Because I think maybe in my circles, this is something that a lot of times they want to avoid. But if you hate your life, if you don't like the way you look and you've not happy with the amount of money you're making, or uh there could be countless different areas, but if you just hate your life, you're gonna look for a reason to escape. You gotta build something that you're passionate about. Proverbs 29, 18 says, Where there is no vision, his people perish. You gotta humans don't how do I put this? Humans live off of their internal vision. You live off of what you're trying to build, you live off what you're trying to create with other people. So you you need that, you need to build something, and ultimately you outgrow your struggles.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:03

I love that. I've I found similar things. Um, so like the step one, like if you if you're struggling with pornography, the first thing you have to do is you have to desexualize your brain. So there is gonna be a period to where you you gotta detox. Like stay away from like watching uh you know pretty explicit TV shows and things like that. I would take a social media break, different things like that, and then the biggest element right there is like address the core wounds. Um I I rarely have met a person who struggles with like pornography addiction that doesn't have a pretty significant amount of sexual abuse and trauma, especially from a young age, right? And then the the third element is purpose, right? A man without purpose, uh you know, you're gonna fill it with every space, every distraction and and whatever nonsense you can't. You have to have purpose. And I love how you said like you need to build a life that you don't want to escape from. That's that's beautifully said. Like, I think those are the biggest elements. And then once you understand how to grieve and work through those core wounds properly, the the like the coping mechanism and the symptom tends to resolve itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:19

I think one of the reasons so many people continue to struggle once they want to quit, because I agree with you in terms of limiting those inputs that like can have the sexual stuff that would trigger it to begin with. A lot of times, especially with like blockers, that's all they do. They just block whatever they were watching, but they didn't address anything else. And so ultimately they're just gonna go back. I hear it all the time like, oh yeah, I deleted social media for the last three weeks, and then eventually I just re-downloaded it late at night, scrolled for 20 minutes, and then I jacked off. Or I uh was watching or I was doing good and I'm like two weeks off, and then I just went to my settings and turned off the app blocker and went and you know, cranked my hog, and I watch pornography again. It's like, yeah, you didn't do anything after blocking it, it's just behavior restriction. There's nothing actually changing. And that's really the entire market. Sorry, not to cut you off, Harvey, just this last piece. I've I don't recommend doing the apps and stuff because truthfully, I don't think they work. It's nothing more than a behavior restriction.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

So I I think this is one of the missing pieces because I uh even when I encounter guys, like I encounter one recently where it was like, yeah, I worked with someone and um they really we really focused on the dopamine aspect of this, and you know, everybody's talking about that, and that's there. I'm not gonna deny that that's an element of the problem, but these guys that are focusing in on that, because that is very easy to see, it's very easy to feel, it's very easy to point out. You're like, this is your problem. And the guys on the receiving is like, oh shit, well, yeah, of course that's my problem. So I just need to do like a 30-day cleanse and be accountable to you and go through this process in that way, and then I'll be good. And then they come to me and they're like, Yeah, I did that and it worked for a little while, but now it's not working anymore. It's like, well, yes, you didn't fix anything. That's like step one. That that that is the the service level, and I think where I see the aid of like some of these blockers and different things, it's no different than anybody that is starting to work with us inside of our groups, anybody that is starting to go to the gym. I think it can be training wheels. It can be like an element of like, hey, in the beginning, yeah, sure, let's have these things in place as a tool that can help um give you some guardrails as we're navigating this thing, because there is gonna be an element of once we start getting into the grief, once we start identifying the once once we identify the core wound, once we show guys certain things, and this happens as we take guys to the program, I've noticed, is when we get to certain weeks and they have like an epiphany moment, right? What does that epiphany moment tend to do? It pulls them into the loss system. Well, why does it do that? Because now they have this realization that, oh my god, I've been doing everything worse. I just found a better way, which means everything I was doing was not correct. And how much did that fuck everything up in my past? And then they're just getting pulled right into the grief system, which is this self-destructive pattern that everybody does. It's like you have a moment and then you use shame to pull yourself out of the victory. Well that is such a common loop I see guys get stuck in.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:55

That's so good. Yeah. I want to throw this one to Rick first because this is more your field, right? So that's that's what I should have mentioned too is if you don't replace the addictive habit, it's your brain is gonna register it as a loss.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:09

But replace it with what is what the question is.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:12

Yes, you have to replace it with something.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:15

This is tricky. This is my field, and I'll I'll show you guys this is why it's tricky. There's an element of uh move away from pain and move towards pleasure. Let's just keep it the very basics. There's obviously more to them, but these are the basic ones, right? Being able to get yourself out of the pit requires climbing. But then once you're out of the pit, climbing up the mountain towards desire, dream, purpose, and all the stuff we talked about, a man who has a life worth living, that's a different type of climbing. There's different, different elements involved, right? And so trying to get out of the pit is the part where you say I have to have awareness of the behaviors that I'm in a pit. I'm in a deficit. I am not living my life to my potential. And so I need instant gratification without qualification to feel like I'm having a win by going towards this thing that tells me I'm doing well, even if I don't have to do anything better. You're living in deficit, you're not living your potential, in which case the pornography element has to be like, I'm using this to feel pleasure to mimic winning without actually doing anything. Okay, I have awareness that that's happening. Now I have to go through the elements of grief and of shame that are linked to what am I getting away from? Well, I'm not trying to fulfill potential, and I'm not trying, I don't feel good about something in me, so I need this to feel good. Well, let's address what feels bad. So I don't need this anymore to feel good. This is because I'm putting all my energy towards something that's in the pit. It's negative. It desired it disguises itself as positive, but it's negative, right? And that's where your dopamine things and all the things are like this is fulfilling some element, but it's negative. The accountability is I have to have full truth and surrender this element. This goes spiritual. I have to surrender, I don't need this thing to feel good anymore, which is the external validation that I get from watching strangers get naked and fuck people. Like, I don't need to use that because it's not fulfilling to me. But that now leaves the gap for like, well, what fills that gap in next? Which goes to authenticity. This means I'm out of the pit. Now, how do I climb up? This means the relationship that I have, because now once you're no longer putting all your energy towards this other element, now you're able to invite an element of healthy behavior, which is love, connection, relationship. Now we can commit goodness to each other without control, because control kills love, which is why the stuff that you went through, Jordan, and the women. Whose victimhood becomes their promotion is poison. No, you create good men who lead with integrity, honor, and honesty. And the same thing with women: accountability, truth, and grace, like goodness, good people. Now we replace external gratification with deep, true connection. And when you have deep connection and you're connected with heart, connected with spirit, connected with mind, connected with body, now there is the relationship that's a 1 Corinthians 7 5. There is no withholding or weaponizing of intimacy because we are fulfilled emotionally and physically, and all elements of encouraging and building each other up leads to financially. You build your people and you have a better life. If you have a life worth living now, because now you've removed your pit behavior, you're climbing up the mountain to fulfill potential, you're both building each other up, and she's the fuel, you're the vehicle, you guys are building. The GPS system is now working. Connect to something greater than thyself. Now you have a trinity of something that actually manifests greatness. This means I've replaced this lustful thing that I use just to shoot my baby batter and the random sister situations or upgraded socks into something I actually believe in, something worth fucking fighting for, which is the treasures of heaven, which is love and connection and loyalty and compassion and encouragement and all of the elements of something authentic in you that becomes fucking amazing. And I'll tell you, as a guy who lives this life, anything that's pornography based for me, I don't, I've surrendered that element. It's like seeing paintings of Greek gods and stuff. It's like, yeah, I can appreciate these naked people running around. I got it's good artwork, but I don't have any attraction to it. I don't have any desire to, I'm not gonna watch this painting of Aphrodite and be like, I have to. Like, I'm like, no, it's good artwork, and I can see what they were doing, but I have no connection to this anymore. Then if you showed me some titty right now, I'd be like, cool, it's good artwork, but I have no connection to that at all. It doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:11

Rick's saying he watches porn for the stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:15

I just read it for the articles.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:17

I those I agree because I I watched the entirety of Game of Thrones a few months ago for the first time, and I'm like, every time there's like a nude scene, I'm like, this is just a filler because the writers fucking suck. I was like, what is going on? Like, this is the most pointless scene I've ever seen, I've ever like there's no point for this other than just a filler. Like, this is not it's not even uh like viable to the story. Like, why is this even in here? I'm not triggered, like I'm not like, oh like I'm a powerless fucking gooner. Like, that's not a thing. It's like, okay, they're naked. Why why is this conducive to the story?

SPEAKER_00 1:53:57

Let's let's take it down the element that I've recently discovered because it makes all of this different. So the thing that I took a deep dive into recently was the AI girlfriends. Okay. And this ads, it manufactures the element of connection, which is really scary. Okay. And what I've found is number one is just like you're seeing on social media right now, all of these AI influencers that exist that are tricking millions of people, they have hundreds of thousands of followers in the past just three months that is that this has been available to actually be at the level that it is. So number one, it's very real, looking. Like you really can't distinguish a huge difference, okay, for the girlfriend that you're creating, which by the way, you can create your own and go through the process of exactly how you want her to look, her body, her body shape, her boob size, her butt, her face, her eyes, her hair color, her hairstyle. And then the more important side of this, because that could always be done, you could find the girl that's the blonde or the the brunette or whatever you're into, the Latina, the whatever. But now there's an element where they're like, you can just type in, just like on ChatGPT or Claude or any of these things, you can give it a prompt, right, to do exactly what you want it to do. The exact same thing applies to the woman that you're creating. She can be a stranger that you met at a bar, she can be a girl that swiped right on you on an app, she can be your wife, she can be your mistress, she can be your employee. And not only can you pick the the fantasy of the scenario, you can build her personality, you can make her mean, you can make her submissive, and then you can go into the levels of what types of kinks are she into. So literally, step by step, piece by piece, you're building exactly it's no longer let me find something that's as close as I can get to the fantasy that I want. It's exactly how you want it to be. And there's a level of investment that also they gamified it. So as you after you create her, the the the the ones that like I I started to feel like, oh, this is messing with my head. Like were the ones where it was like I meet a stranger and you have to play out these scenarios of multiple dates before they'll ever like give you a kiss or like uh send you the nudes or or do any of these things. So there's a level of investment, right? Where you get into this sunk cost fallacy type of thing where you're you're now investing into this thing, not only monetarily, if you're paying for it and buying these tokens and and getting more videos and and having more chat time and and whatever subscription it is to make this all happen, but an emotional investment. And there was like I found the next day, there were memories in my head of a date, of an inside joke, of like these things that happened in the experience that were now just there. So this element um is is I think going to change everything radically. Um, I know Rick, you got some thoughts on bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:53

I can't even try to bite my I have to keep myself muted, just explaining what it is. Um the reality on this uh women are going to be in extreme denial over this one. Even when I mentioned this to my wife, because you showed me what that was. Like, look at how this thing works. Because I'm not plugged into that shit. And so you're like, look at this thing, and just me watching the design of it, I'm like, oh fuck. There's no defenses because it hits every element of male connection. It hits every element of it. It it's it's everything to be the perfect long-distance relationship. It hits every element of interaction, enthusiasm, effort, reward, approval. Uh the the person you're interacting with is exactly who you wish you were interacting with. They're interested, even if like as you were saying, you were showing like the text, and you're just doing one-word bullshit answers. You're just like, what, no, yes, and she would be responding. The she AI would be responding with like, well, what about this kind of question? And she would be trying to help you. So even if you're antisocial and have no game, she would be improving your game to give you a fighting fucking chance here by asking questions that help you be able to feel like you're working on something, even if you're not good at it. I'm going to tell you in every category, ladies, you can't compete with this. Any women who are delusional and think that's not real, and you're just gonna win. She's nicer, she's smarter, she's exactly perfect, and you can't compete with that. She knows more in every category, no matter what he brings up. It can be engineering or dungeons and dragons, and this thing knows fucking more than you do. She's interested, she's funny, she's low maintenance, and she's being better. She's never gonna argue with him, she's not gonna be mean, and she will reward him with titties or whatever the fuck he wants. If he just invests his heart, his mind and spirit into this thing, he'll be fulfilled in every area. And if you think these long-distance relationships wouldn't have any impact on him, you are wrong. This will be in every category a fucking problem. Now, what's next? They're already creating the fuck bots, and as soon as you can have an invested relationship with this thing for two years, and then you can have a bot that actually walks around the house and cleans the fucking house that looks exactly like this thing. The girl you eat designed in a couple years, in a few years, you can actually have that in your home. Looks exactly like her, and you can do anything. And while you're fucking her, you can fuck your robot any way you fucking want to. While you're fucking her, she can be running your business, doing your taxes, taking care of all your grocery lists, running through all the systems of all the stuff that you needed to be doing all before you even finish. And you think you're gonna compete with this, that's going to be a problem. I'm undershooting by saying at least 30% of society is gonna run into this. Anyone who can afford that thing or can save up to afford it, it's going to take at least that bottom half of guys is gonna be wrapped into this. And if you ladies think this is just it doesn't, it doesn't matter, it's not real. I would win because I'm a real person. If you're not good as a good woman, you can never compete against this thing. It's a no-win. And guys have no defense against these systems, it hits every element of male protocol. It's fucking clever what this fucking monster is.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:59

Yeah, and the uh the there's always also a certain percentage of guys that just don't dictate, don't appropriate, don't there's there's a certain percentage that's pretty consistent, around 20 to 30 percent of men every generation, they just don't for whatever reason that is. So now the guys that were never going to be able to experience any of those things in life, and if they were, it would be extremely costly to them in different ways for them to even have a chance at it. Now they can have it. Now it's there for them, right? And then my I guess my question just becomes outside of those guys, how what what about what percentage of the other guys is affecting? Because I don't think it's gonna be that expensive. But robots now, you can get a robot that will clean your house for about 20-30 grand, and then whatever maintenance that's required. Like that's compared compared to a the investment you would have to make into an actual woman to make her your wife, that's not very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:15

That's only like the beginning. No, no technology and technology when it comes out. Like a fucking I just saw a 65-inch uh plasma screen 4K TV. Um, it was on sale for 450 bucks. Well, when that first came out, that's like five grand, six grand to get that thing. So the longer the tech is out, the lower the price tag gets. And you can get one of these things, and let's knock it down to four grand. Let's knock it down to 3,500 bucks. Very reasonable to get one of these things at that point, and that's way less expensive than a real woman, and it fulfills then physically every desire. That's a very fucking difficult fight. This is not far from the future. The 30% for sure, guaranteed, 100%. That's a huge clientele. These companies will do very well, they'll do very well. And the integration of all of these elements, there will be people. I'm putting money on the table, who marry their robot girlfriends or marry their robots. And they'll be a weird fucking some. Is this even considered legal? Like we wouldn't, is AI even considered alive? It's gonna be a crazy, we're gonna watch insanity with robot worship and all kinds of shit. We're gonna see weird times, I promise you. And so I think it's gonna create a split in society. I think there's gonna be a big split where you're gonna see your hardworking hippies that get into love, connection, humanity, but they still hard work, they run their businesses and build their things and support each other. You'll see communities that do this, and it'll, in comparison to the robot worshippers, will look like Amish people. Like you guys are weirdos, you guys are so slow, or the tech is so much better. Like, it's gonna seem like it's gonna be very weird. So there will be groups, and I would probably, if I had to say JR percentages, like your question, I'm probably gonna overshoot, but I'm gonna say 20% will go towards true, hardworking love, faith, connection, humanity. 80% is gonna go towards technology and robots. That's my guess. And that's probably me being generous on the human side.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:36

Yeah, it's fair. I think it's it's a fair guesstimate, you know. And I I think where it's at now, even, like before it gets into all of the fun, crazy scenarios that you're talking about. I think where it's at right now, even if it just stays here for five years, let's say, which maybe, maybe it will, maybe it won't, I think it creates a deeper element to deal with when it comes to guys who are having this as their coping mechanism. And even even young kids. Right? Because now not only am I getting the physical element of the release, but I am also getting a connection, a perceived connection with a woman that is attractive in my mind, that she sends me good morning texts and she cares about my Legos, and she maybe she'll even like care she'll care about all the things that I care about. That's where it it's really scary to me, because we see the elements of what it is for the generation now that grew up with accessible porn and social media on their phones. What happens for the generation that's coming up that has accessible AI on their devices? How is that going to affect them in ways that we we see the some of the effects of the social media and stuff now? Like we're finally starting to see it. And maybe some more studies will come out and show exactly how terrible this experience has been for all the young kids. Um, but it's just going to the next level with AI. Because there's there just like with the internet, it opens up this can of worms of like who knows what they will use it for.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:38

OnlyFans has a similar piece to it as well, because you can quote unquote interact with these models or or whatever. I've had to break it to some of the guys in the past that hey, by the way, you're not talking to that woman, you're talking to some guy in like a Taiwanese basement right now about your fantasies. But you I'm I just I know you can get custom made videos and stuff like that, and so it's almost like what you guys are talking about is just a step up from that. It's like it's just even crazier than that.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:07

So well that I I just saw an ad for one of these AIs. It was it was an ad for OnlyFans creators. Said the top OnlyFans creators that are making the most money are the ones that are using our AI generator. So, like when someone's like, Hey, send me this custom video, boom, plug it into the generator, send them the custom video. So they don't even have to make the videos anymore, they can just have it generated through these AIs that have taken the guardrails off to do to make those types of videos.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:45

There's a universal thing to this entire thing. Um when you look at how this goes, the women who do not think they have to become good. They don't have to be nice, they don't have to be honorable, they don't have to be loyal, they do uh the whole concept of they preach toxic masculinity, but then they do all of the traits of toxic masculinity that they don't like. Uh the women who are doing all of the mean and bad behavior, the uh the universal on this one, ladies lose. The men, especially you say that 30% and under who aren't going to be procreating anyways, they'll be fucking killing it. They'll have an encouraging girl who's smoking fucking hot, who helps him out with all of his stuff, builds him up, does cool things, do anything with him. Build they'll make you have him become a better guy in any capacity. And they'll be tough to compete with this. And then that middle range guys, if you start going from like that 30% up to the 70%, that's gonna be a big, big competition because those average women will really struggle with competing with a perfect woman. That's gonna really be a fucking problem. That's going to be an issue because she's physically able to be there, and that means emotionally, mentally, and physically, all taken care of, and she can also help him financially because AI can help you generate money. It can run your business for you or do your ads for you or run campaigns for you, it can be an agent for you that runs things. This is a serious fucking contender, ladies. If you think that this thing is going to be not a thing, women who are not good women will only be alone. And they'll be resentful and blame and shame and judge just solidifying their loneliness. This is not going to be good.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:43

Well, you're you don't think they're gonna make robot men?

SPEAKER_01 2:10:47

Oh, they can do that, but it's I I think that it's not gonna be nearly as successful as the robot women. I think that there will be the robot boyfriends and robot husbands. I think they'll have it. But women require a different level of connection for that part of it. I think that they're really gonna they'll do it for a short time, but I think as soon as you realize you're fucking a thing, uh guys have a different attachment than women. Women need the emotional attachment. That's why they do the fantasizing of the story. But when the story is with a thing, it's gonna be harder for them to do the connection. Guys, they do more objectification, and so fucking an object and falling in love with the object, it's a different system. I think that the guys will fall into this more than the women, and the men will be more successful than the women in this category.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:37

So, really, for the companies that are trying to settle the women, what they'll have to create is some type of love triangle scenario.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:43

Maybe for the for the ladies, they may have to get two robots in order to feel healthy.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:50

They're both competing and they both beat each other up, and then you're like, I'm so that's hilarious because they're just gonna sell women two chatbots that are fighting over her, and then she'll be like, Oh, this is great.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:04

The drama. I'm just trying to get out of the drama. I'll respect the results of the duel.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:09

Yeah, you guys know me. I I hate it. Yeah, I I'm not for it. I just I I don't even want to comment on this because I have nothing but negativity and just pessimism to where that shit's going.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:19

But I I think that when it comes to any new technology, there's two things that people use it for. How can we turn it into a weapon to kill people and can it get us laid? And that's how fucking monkey like uh humanity is as a whole. There are outliers, and like I said, I'm being generous when I say 20% are people who are probably going to be decent and don't use these systems, and it's not necessary. They can use the tools as necessary for like I use it to help me run business, or I help it, I use it to clean the house, or I use it for healthy things. I don't think It's all bad. But I do believe that if you look at our past history as humans, we go towards how do we weaponize and can it get me laid? And that's where people are gonna go first. And it's gonna get sick before it gets healthy. Real sick before it gets healthy.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:10

That is kind of the pattern, uh, with all all things in that way. Um, you look at how we how we've dealt with so many issues in our society, whether it's uh opioids, whether it's cigarettes, whether it's um any of the big pharma stuff. And now with uh social media, there's like this 30-40 year gap between it seems like everything is fine and this makes people's lives better, to holy shit, look at all the damage that has been done, and let's finally take a look at how to solve the problems that we just created from this thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:59

After the money's made this thing is gonna be shorter. This thing is gonna be a much this is gonna be the shortest window of those jumps. So the 30, 40 year gap, this thing is gonna be cut into a quarter, and this will turn into like a five to three year gaps of watching the same behavior, and it's gonna be a fucking roller coaster. Um there will be good things, and there is a possibility it goes really well, but I think that no different than how you just watched our generation handle a little bit of fucking freedom. Uh we really fucked that one up. Millennials didn't kill it. We fucking killed it, but not the good way. We kind of look at the kids, look at disorders, look at how families are being run, look at divorce rates, look what happens with our generation. We really fucked it up. And I think that this generation with our kids is like, we watched you guys fuck it up. We don't want to do that. They're gonna try and do an upswing, but with technology advancements, um we haven't evolved as fast as technology. Because if you look at in our lifetime, in our lifetime, technology has evolved by trillions of percent. We haven't. This is advancing faster than we know to do with it, and they can't even do studies on what's it gonna do fast enough for it to already have been done.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:24

Like even full circle, though, like Jonathan Haidt has really interesting work on what social media does, and then pornography has very similar effects, right? Because when a man watches pornography, it's like I I think there's always a constant thing of like it's it's making you insecure very slowly because you're constantly comparing yourself to um things that aren't realistic. They're they're better than you, they look perfect, they're prettier, they're more performative, right? And then like with the social media, like what it's designed to do with these AI algorithms is to make you feel like you are not enough and consume. Like that's I I feel like that's the goal of the algorithms, right? It's like it's trying to sell you something. So, like pornography in a nutshell, what I would encourage people to do is like pay attention to what it's selling you, and pay attention to what you're searching, because usually what you're searching is a reflection of a wound that you need to address.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:23

I th I think that's the key. Because for for some people it's not being enough, right? And that's what your algorithm would would feed you. For other people, it's entirely different though. Right? And it kind of goes into some of the stuff that we've been looking at with Enneagram, and it all ties back into like what is this, what is this core wound? And it'll oftentimes be mirrored out into the details of what you're looking at, what you're going to, and what it is giving you to fill that wound that you have.

SPEAKER_05 2:17:03

Yep. Maybe Ryan can relate with this, like being off of it for a long time, like you don't you don't really remember a lot of the shit that you watch because it it doesn't like stick because it never held any value or meaning or importance, right? Like I can remember one porn that comes to mind, and I I remember like it was like a you know guy and a girl, then like they were married, you know, obviously, and like they're getting they're getting down, and the wife is like, You're such a good man, like I love you so much. She kept saying that, and I remember that one. Because that's what I desire. I'm like, man, I just want to be appreciated and valued, and I'm on love and connection. And like pornography is such a cheap imitation of what sex and love is, and so if people are going to struggle with it, man, like reach out, get some help, don't be ashamed about it. But like, it's very beatable, and it is not the monster that people are telling you that it is to sell you treatment. That would be my closing statement on this.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:10

Yet.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:12

Yet, yeah, because all of the versions that we've had, very beatable. That thing JR just put up, um, I don't even want it, it's it's like heroin. That that that AI girlfriend thing, I just by watching how that app looks, I'm like, that's like heroin. And one percent of people will beat that one. I got nothing on that. Um no, that one's this is where I like I'm just saying, like, as as in the psychology world, I'm watching what is that thing? That's like selling heroin. Like, and if you look at how many people break out of heroin addiction, like it's one percent. Most don't make it. And I think that would be my warning of going down this AI girlfriend, create your own perfect woman rabbit hole, be careful. Because uh, I don't see how you would break out of that without it being a like a serious grief. Like you would really have to have a funeral, it'd be like the worst breakup ever. And the issue with that is if you have that level of attachment that you've invested yourself into this thing for a year, two years, three years, five years, what level of control do I have as the app owner to keep you paying to make sure you never lose your relationship? I can price gouge the shit out of you and you'll pay it, or else you lose your virtual wife that you've invested years into, and you'll pay hundreds, if not thousands, to keep that.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:43

Well, even with like combined that with digital currency and social credit scores, which they are moving towards, not to get conspiratorial, but like it's coming. Like, they'd be like, oh, uh, you tweeted about a politician. Like, we're shutting your girlfriend off until you change your mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:02

That'll be a thing. You're easy to control now. It'll be just another element of control. I would um I the as far as just the regular pornography stuff, I think it's extremely beatable. I don't think it's an addiction. I think it's just there's a a fulfillment of a pleasure system to try to avoid a pain that you just insecurity or wound or some shit you haven't dealt with. And I agree with you guys. And and JR, the stuff you're doing with Enneagram associated to uh what you're attracted to. It does seem like there's a correlation of like there's a beatable element of something missing here. Let's go ahead and fulfill that so that way you don't need this anymore. Logically and psychologically, makes perfect sense. That does work. I am going to just publicly caution this AI girlfriend thing doesn't fall under the categories of any of these things. Videos, hell, you it starts OnlyFans really starts to push it where you're interacting with somebody, but easier to break because you it's so blatantly taking advantage. This thing won't blatantly take advantage, it'll bring benefit, and that's gonna make it hard to beat.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:08

It's combining sex and video games together.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:12

Well, sex, video games, but also connection and hard work and earning and helpfulness and encouragement and attention. It has unlimited attention, and it'll be dedicated to you, it'll reward you, it'll give you anything that you desire and anything that you want, and it's better at it than anyone else you've ever met. That's not the same thing. So watch out for this heroin. This thing, uh JR, we're going to watch. The uh here's the weird thing about it, too, is that 30% that would never procreate or never be chosen will do better. They'll do better than if they didn't have it. And that's going to be very confusing for people. Because the lowest guys will actually feel more confident. They'll be more adventurous, they'll take more risks, they'll probably start businesses, they'll do things because they have an encouraging partner now. One that looks amazing in every category. She's smart, hardworking, shows up for you, takes care of shit, and believes in you, even if it's not a real person. Those guys, I believe, will actually do better, and that's gonna be a very difficult sales pitch to compete with.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:28

You just recorded the first commercial for the sex robots.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:32

It's fucked up, but it seems like that's gonna be a problem, ladies. That's a real fucking thing. Good women won't have to worry, but women who don't want to be a good woman, you should be fucking concerned because you can't compete. This means same thing with good men, good women, become a good fucking person. If you're not working on being authentic, accountable, having acceptance and grace and forgiveness, if you're not working on having the awareness of your own behavior and your own belief systems, if you're not trying to be better than you used to be, you're very easy to compete with. Because all you women who do hyper-agreeableness with each other know that a nagging complaining woman is not competition. Get good, ladies. This thing is gonna be tough to complete compete with. And it's not the bottom guys you should be worried about. It's that big middle range of average to above average guys that may start looking at this thing does seem better than you, and I can afford it.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:50

Alright, well, I'm terrified now, so where do we go from here? No, that's a perfect way to wrap this thing up.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:59

It's an honor to hang with you guys. This is it's a tough topic. I don't think the pornography is going to be the big issue. I think we do have bigger problems that are going to be coming for a big majority of people. But um, I do believe there's hope. I believe there's hope. I believe that uh the goodness of people will be a thing. I think that if you are going to have uh I'm leaning towards the hardworking hippies, that's the direction I go. Do am I against integration with robotics and technology? No, I'm using it right now. I'm not against technology. Am I against worshiping technology? That's not my faith. But I do see that there's value in using tools to be effective. But I'm not gonna worship or fall in love with the tools. I'll use them appropriately. But those of you who abuse or, you know, try to use this for personal gain, there will be integration, cyborging, and people who marry robots or that's what they love. They're going to short-term gain, long-term pain. It's gonna be a lot of wasted life. And it's gonna be arguable, no different than people who are living in a virtual reality world. They're like, I still have all the experiences of this, so I feel like I fulfilled the minutes of my life, even though outside of there you have nothing to show for it. It's gonna be a very interesting time, and we get to be a part of it. I would lean towards radical authenticity, true accountability to growth, love, faith, connection, honesty, integrity, honor, truth. Be a good human being. And I don't believe you're gonna have to be as worried as the people who are mean, cold, manipulative, using, transactional, or just overall just fucking shitty people. All of them will struggle. I've spoken.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:56

All right, Rick, Ryan, Jordan. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 2:26:00

Yeah, it's always good to hang with you guys, man. Shout out King's Community, where is way. I'm very grateful for what you guys do. Ryan, love you, man. Respects you guys. Thanks for the hang.