120. Tim Arrigo: Beyond Driven!

Join us as we sit down with Tim, a warrior soul who has turned his personal battles into a beacon of hope for others. Our exchange pierces the heart of what it means to be a man in a world that often overlooks our need for empathy and genuine support. In a society that pushes men towards isolation, we reveal the transformative power of community, the healing nature of spiritual connections, and the courage it takes to confront the shadows of addiction and trauma.

Venturing beyond traditional paradigms, this episode is a candid exploration of male vulnerability, the art of setting healthy boundaries, and the importance of consciously choosing paths to personal growth. As we dissect the dynamics of marriage, motivation, and the roles men are expected to play, we challenge the stigma and embrace the strength that comes with mutual support. Tim's insights shine a light on the delicate balance of leading with influence in relationships, and the pivotal role self-awareness plays in fostering authentic connections.

Our heartfelt conversation culminates in reflections on gratitude for the collaborative flow state achieved throughout our discussion. The synergy between us as we navigate complexities, from the emotional accountability required in partnerships to the societal pressures of gender roles, underscores a shared dedication to empowering others. The gratitude we share for this profound connection is a testament to the difference one can make when serving from the heart.

Connect with Tim Arrigo HERE! 

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Click HERE to choose your path! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Warrior Mindset and Overcoming Adversity
• 7:20 Overcoming Addiction Through Understanding Trauma
• 20:25 Men's Empathy and Support Needs
• 25:28 Supporting Men Through Mental Health
• 37:52 Navigating Male Vulnerability and Relationships
• 48:25 Navigating Shame, Guilt, and Judgments
• 53:28 Autonomy
• 1:04:54 Navigating Marriage and Motivation
• 1:09:41 Leading With Purpose in Relationships
• 1:15:56 Navigating Conflict and Communication in Marriage
• 1:19:15 Manhood and Authenticity in Relationships
• 1:30:52 Navigating Male Communication Styles in Relationships
• 1:36:54 Navigating Men's Emotional Accountability
• 1:49:22 Navigating Relationships and Religious Obligations
• 1:53:05 Understanding Abuse Within Religious Relationships
• 1:56:21 Exploring Gender Roles and Relationships
• 2:07:45 Gratitude for Collaborative Flow State

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

What's up, warriors, welcome back to the battlefield of mind. I'm Rick, creator, the warriors way mindset, and I've got somebody here may not need the Introduction, but another fellow warrior in the fray out there with our brothers Tim, it's a rick. Oh, or we go, I want to say it right or ego a rego. I knew it all right beyond driven. This guy is out there on the front lines, just like we are, and this one's gonna be an episode that I want you guys to get your notebooks out, because we're gonna drop a lot of earned wisdom when we talk about the parts of us that, like, it's not read in books, it's earned on the battlefield.

Speaker 1: 0:41

This is a battlefield conversation, guys who have actually been on the front line. So, tim, we were just talking about how we started off this from need not greed. How we started off because we saw that people needed to be there for others who were just making it burn and churn. And there's something that I took from this and this is something we've been talking in the Warriors way you have found yourself that you needed to be the hero for others that you never had. Yeah, is that fair? Yeah, yeah. So this is something we're like. Alright, keep going with your story on this. We saw when I was at rock bottom, when I was in my shit, when I was hurting and I didn't have anybody there, but man did, I need somebody there. So now I've taken on the, the mantle, or the mission, the purpose that God put on me to be the guy who's there for people who have nobody there.

Speaker 2: 1:31

It's powerful. It's a law of reciprocity. I think so many people are stuck and they they get to a place in their journey where they enter back and you see rates of recidivism, or you see people entering back into these cycles of you know self-destructive patterns in their life and they wonder why they keep going back. It's because you didn't get the other half. The other half was you were supposed to go out and you were supposed to impart that wisdom, knowledge, experience Onto somebody else. And right, and in that you experience how your value is actualized in an interaction with another person, how providing value to another human. It doesn't matter if it's just even just a conversation about how that changes. That first time that ever happened to me, the very first time that ever happened to me, I I had just gotten off a heroin. I had hepatitis C. I've just gotten off a heroin, just got off a methadone, xanax, got off all hard drugs and I went through a detox from hell in an apartment alone by myself, hit my knees, called out to Jesus, said if you're really real, come into my life and change my life, my life Instantaneously. I had a call in my life. I could not deny this call. This call was so heavy on my life. I had like crippling anxiety every single day and I started working in mental health and substance abuse. And I showed up to a facility one night and I was working in graveyard shifts. It was the only job that I could get I was only opening they had but I took it and I started working this graveyard shift. And I arrived at work one night and there was a gentleman. He was standing outside with like a black trash bag, like how I used to be, and he was standing there with a black trash bag and I was like kind of walked in the office, kind of walked past and walked in the office, and I said I said you know, if the guy's in the office is a staff, I said, hey, what's up with that guy outside? And they're like, oh, that guy F that guy. And I'm like, wait, I thought we were like helping people here. And they're they're like no, you know what. We've been trying to talk to him all day. He's trying to leave right now and he's not having it from anybody that the owners come and talk to him. We've tried talking to him. He's been outside there for about the last six hours and I'm like, okay, well, can I talk to him? And they're like, yeah, I mean, you're wasting your breath, but go ahead, go talk to him. So I walked outside, I started having a conversation with him and I didn't even say anything or anything profound to him. I just connected to the guy, just empathize with his situation. I just let him know that I'd been there and I just kind of I just was there to support him, like I didn't try to convince him of anything, I just said, hey, man, like I know where you're at and I just want to be here to support you, and I didn't think anything of it.

Speaker 2: 4:08

I came back into the office and the next day I came back to work again, like 1130, walking, you know, walking through the driveway, and he's, he's standing there waiting for me and he's like, hey, tim, I go, hey, what's up man? And he goes and he, with tears in his eyes and he was like thanks for what you did for me last night. And he goes. If you didn't do that for me, man, I was going to leave and I was in a very bad, bad way. And I realized that night as I went back into the office, I kind of sat by myself and I was staring out a wall and this kind of wave came over me where I realized it's been a very long time since I've actually done something for somebody else like that and it felt so good and all I thought next was I want to do that again. And then the thought that came after that thought was well, if you want to give more, you need to be more. So that was really my whole personal development journey, working in the clinical setting and working in the environments I worked in in Southern California.

Speaker 2: 5:20

It wasn't even about. It was about nothing other than being better for the people that I serve. It had nothing to do with me, like I see so much stuff on the internet about people like you know, work on yourself so that you can be for me. It wasn't even about that Like for me. It was about if I can be, if I can be better in every single way, that I can be better both physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. If I can show up better here at this location, at these facilities, for these people that are struggling and literally hanging on by a thin thread, then I can help more people and I can make a greater impact and I think invariably all of us, especially as men, we want to make a difference, we want to feel like we can make a difference in the world.

Speaker 2: 6:10

And so, yeah, I mean becoming the hero in your own story. Right, eventually, you start to liberate others, because when your trauma is meant to be overcome, your pain is meant to be overcome, because what's on the other side of that is a unique set of skills, character, virtues, attributes, insight, wisdom, knowledge and experience and tools that you can impart onto somebody else and that becomes like you tell your story of what you overcame and that becomes somebody else's survival guide. Right, that becomes somebody else's way out. So, yeah, I think that 100% has to be a part of everybody's story. It can't just be for you, because if it's just for you, it's not going to last and you're not going to want to sustain it or you'll just stagnate.

Speaker 1: 6:54

Yeah, it's amazing, one man doing it, just so you know what I'm doing. I write because you do what I do and you'll put 20 good points in one monologue and people will miss the 20 good points that you just made. So there's a lot of really cool things. I'm going to do a recap based on some of the stuff I caught from what you did and you talked about the people who know but don't do, and this you let into the men's purpose element, which we'll get to the hero's journey. I want to give you a little bit of praise here on this thing. When you talked about I had to beat heroin and hep C, people don't really understand the statistic on this. Like, alcohol is one thing you know, or prescription drugs is another thing. These are difficult. Opioids very fucking difficult, but heroin heroin Do you probably know the percentage? What's the percentage of people that break heroin?

Speaker 2: 7:41

Very small percentage. I think it's around 7 to 10% or maybe lower.

Speaker 1: 7:46

If you round up, it's closer to 1%. I had no idea, yeah you're one percent, or also when it comes to heroin. I don't know a single person who survived heroin, who didn't find their spirit side, who didn't connect with God. I don't know a single one who made it through who didn't find God.

Speaker 2: 8:04

Yeah, that was, that was what. Where that was my breaking point was was that moment, but that was also your, your Phoenix moment.

Speaker 1: 8:12

This is where you had to burn out and rise from the ashes. And this is where, when people are going, what's your fucking credentials? You go like, listen, I read the books, I got the certificates, I've got the plaques. They're all in storage. I went through the fucking shit. That's my fucking credentials. And this is why I say challenge your gurus, see if he did it. Yeah, ask hard questions, see if he knows what it's like.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Because I see too many people stuck at the bridge to get out of hell. That hasn't been there for 40 years. Because it said in a book that somebody read there's a bridge to get out of anxiety or depression there, and I see a big group of people going. I must be fucking this up, I must be doing it wrong, because the guy who wrote a book said there's a bridge here and I just can't cross it and we're like do we come here? That bridge hasn't been there for fucking 40 years. What are you talking about? You got to go this way, can't get out of there from. There's nothing there. It's a fucking pit dude. And people feel like they're the problem because they've never been into hell telling people how to get out and those people feel like they're failing, they're not good enough. But you're one percenter heroin. Heroin is one of the ones that takes 99%. They don't make it. Yeah, my heroin addiction was bad.

Speaker 2: 9:18

I was on the streets of Santa Ana. I was literally the guy with the needle hanging out his neck in a McDonald's bathroom Like that was me. I weighed like 125 pounds. I was also at one point on methadone and heroin, so I had a double habit and I was addicted to prescribed prescribed Xanax. And that all came out of my own pain.

Speaker 2: 9:40

That all came as a way to escape reality because I had no, I had no awareness of what was actually even going on with me, right, and so I looked primarily at the surface of what my issues were and, to be honest, like I didn't want, everything that was being offered to me as a solution to my problem did not fit in what I wanted to do. It was like sitting in a room and, again, if somebody wants to do this and this works for them, that's great, but for me it didn't work. I didn't want to sit in a room right, 40 years after my addiction, be identifying as an addict and drinking strong coffee and sitting there talking to other guys who just wasn't my desire, like I wanted to put it behind me. I wanted to make a comment.

Speaker 1: 10:24

We know why, though right it makes sense. I also am against that element for AA and any other addiction systems is because your identity matters, and if you call yourself something, it's difficult to break the habits of what you call yourself. Yes, if I call myself Rick the smoker, well, it's going to be difficult for me to quit smoking because it is my identity as a smoker. And so if I say my name is Rick and I am an alcoholic, this is a belief system that is created. So if I try to break that or go against that, I will have a dissonance inside of myself that challenges you are an alcoholic, you are a smoker, you are this, and if I am, it's difficult to be opposite. And so I tell people very differently. And you did hit the fucking nail.

Speaker 1: 11:09

Some people probably missed what you just said. It's not about the identity issue there, it's about understanding. The pain was from something I didn't want to face, and I was doing every distraction I could to not deal with the reality of my pain, and I don't think people can look at a man with empathy and say his heart is fucking broken. He's not a piece of shit drug addict, he has a broken heart. And instead of looking at you as human, they look at you as garbage. You'll be judged or shamed or blamed immediately that you are bad and you go like, no, I am hurt and I don't know how to deal with it, so I'm doing anything to not.

Speaker 1: 11:48

And this is where, when you work at a core, instead of address a symptom, this is a very different conversation. It's in the denial area of what is the hurt you don't want to face. Not, you have an identity issue and start with that. It's the opposite side and that's why people stay stuck in these addiction systems for their whole lives, because they never go into the core. They just talk about change your name and I think people will miss that. You just fucking hit that. That's powerful. That's how it works.

Speaker 2: 12:18

Yeah, and I knew at the end of the day, I knew that I started to realize that the drugs aren't my problem, like it's a way that I solve a problem or try to solve a problem. And the problem is why am I uncomfortable in my own skin? Like, why do I look at reality this way? Why are my relationships so toxic and unhealthy? Like, why am I, why am I in a relationship with myself that is the epitome of abusive, the epitome of abandoning, the epitome of neglecting. Why do I have this type of relationship with myself? And it wasn't until I started to look at all that and actually started to peel back those layers and see that's the sad part too, is you have you have people that genuinely overcome it, but they continue to tell the same story and the same story is not actually, to a large degree, a story that is the full story, because they really haven't been exposed to enough of the education and the insight to see and understand the whole picture, like when we talk about adverse childhood experiences. Right, there was a survey, there was a study done by Kaiser and the CDC in the 1990s. Right, the lead chief investigator for the study was a guy named Dr Vincent Folletti, and they did a study with 17,000 middle class Americans. 33% of these people had been to college. So this was a big survey that they did with a lot of people in San Diego and they measured these people based on 10 categories of what they call adverse childhood experience. So it was abuse, both physical and emotional abuse, right. Also sexual abuse, neglect both physical and emotional neglect. And then an area that they called household dysfunction, which was substance abuse in the home, criminal behavior in the home, mental illness on the home, parental separation or divorce and exposure to domestic violence. And they determined if you had four or more of those experiences, you were seven times more likely to be an alcoholic. If you had four or more of those experiences, you were 10 times more likely you were. I think two thirds of injection drug use could be attributed to those events. If you had four or more of those experiences, you were at four times greater risk of being exposed to substance abuse at an earlier age. And if you had more than five of those experiences, you were 10 times more likely to have a substance use disorder.

Speaker 2: 14:50

So it's all right there in the literature and the data it all supports it. It's all right there that this is a proven thing, that trauma, right, and here's the thing, everybody goes through trauma. So it's not actually the trauma that's the problem. It's the absence of the connections and the relationships when you go through trauma. Right, it's not, because what do relationships do? They buffer the stress, they buffer the pain, right, when you have someone you can go and talk to and you can connect with and you can support you through that, like a lot of people talk. Well, it's the trauma. It's not just the trauma. There's two things. It's the trauma, but it's also the absence of the relationships, because if you're being abused or if you're being neglected, chances are those people that are in that environment that are supposed to support you, are the people abusing you and neglecting you, right? So the reality is it's the two-part process, because if you're traumatized which most people go through something traumatic in their life, right, nobody comes out unscathed, right? If you're traumatized and you go through something, those relationships are supposed to buffer the stress.

Speaker 2: 15:51

But what happens when you go through trauma and you don't have relationships? Well, two things. Number one you hold in your pain and what happens is that pain turns into stress, that stress turns into toxic stress is what's called clinically, it's called toxic stress, and what that does is creates a chemical imbalance. That's why you get in fights, that's why you don't have friends in school or you have trouble making friends, that's why you have ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder, that's why you have these problems right. And then typically that creates that chemical imbalance. Right, leaves your brain susceptible or vulnerable to developing an unhealthy relationship with substances, because when you put the drugs in that brain, that brain responds differently than a normal person's brain. That brain sees it as a form of not recreational use, like Johnny down the street who has a great life, right, but the brain sees it as a form of self-medication. So, number one right, when you go through the traumas and you have no relationships, it compounds the emotions, compound because you're left alone in your pain.

Speaker 2: 16:51

Number one. Number two you develop a relationship with an inanimate object, right, drugs, alcohol, the bottle, the pipe, the syringe, whatever it is, or whatever behavior it is, because there's a ton of behaviors you can develop addictions over as well, right, and that behavior you then look to receive, that behavior can only reciprocate something that you're looking for really in reality within relationships, but is absent and in relationships, and so you're receiving it from this inanimate object and that inanimate object can only reciprocate it in an artificial way. So you develop, I developed an actual relationship with drugs where I didn't take my problems to people. I took my problems to drugs, right Like I didn't when something was going on with me, like I didn't talk, I just knew 100%, I'm 100% confident I could go and I could buy a bag of whatever it was and I could use it, and then it would change how I felt.

Speaker 2: 17:44

Now, did I know all that at the time? No, but I didn't know any of that. All I knew was that why do I have this insatiable desire to continue this behavior? And why am I? Why are so many things going on inside of me that I don't know how to understand or even talk about, and why is everybody in my life operating as if nothing's going on with me? And so I think that you know, when it comes to the traumas that we go through in life, it's all about relationships, it's all about connection, because what's left over at the end, when the trauma, when the event is over, what are you really dealing with?

Speaker 2: 18:18

When you're healing from trauma? You're overcoming the emotional residue of the, of the. It's the imprint, it's the memories, it's the emotions. That's left over, right, because if you have a memory with a negative emotion, well, it's trauma. But if you have a like, when you think about it, you get this emotional charge. Right, that's why EMDR is so important, right, but when you get that emotional charge from it, it's like that's called trauma. But if you have a memory with no emotion, well, now you have clarity. Well, now you have discernment, now you have wisdom, now you have insight, now you have the ability to understand your story, and that's a place we need to get to. You can't change the past, but you can change your relationship to it.

Speaker 1: 19:57

Man, again, you went through like 10 things for people to try to grab the pieces here, and so it's a really good thing. I actually did that test. I don't know what you rated on that test, but I remember I did that test and I was between seven and eight out of 10. Me too, yeah. So we were there, like when people look at us and like you guys should be fucking psychopaths.

Speaker 2: 20:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:20

Like even when I was working with a guy on this, he's like you should be a fucking madman If this is your thing. I'm like I had to go through all of those and so, like this is where people that's why I say like when I knew, immediately when I got to see you you can tell which guys have been in it and you can tell which guys just read about it yeah, there's a very different energy. For the ones who have, like I had to kill fucking 10 demons just to be here, yes, and the guys who are like well, it says here, demons of this, this degree, would you know? You never fucking killed a demon man?

Speaker 2: 20:53

Yeah, you've never been there. I've seen to you. I've seen, I've seen I've seen black, black demons go into people's bodies. I've seen I've prayed demons out of people at facilities. I've had like close encounters with real darkness, like real people that kill people. Like I've been in environments where I've been in those places, so I know what that's like and that's that when you've been through those experiences, it only brings another level of like you understand that this is a spiritual thing. It's a spiritual war Like you've. You've obviously like this is frontline ministry what we do. And so you understand like there's a bigger picture here.

Speaker 2: 21:34

It's not about reading a book. It's like no man. This is a spiritual war and the reality is, what are we really doing? Like we're inviting people on the journey with us. We're saying like, hey brother, wake up. This isn't about this isn't about changing your behavior. This is about a spiritual awakening that needs to take place inside your life. But check it out. Like you even said it earlier, right, it's like you got to hit that bottom in your life. You got to hit that place in your life where you're in so much pain and you're you're so broken in that place. But the beauty in that is that. That's where we find our strength, too. That's where we find our resolve.

Speaker 1: 22:06

So you're right on something and this is where I think you and I have found our calling in alignment is that there's a huge need right now for men, because men do not receive empathy from their partners in many scenarios. And so I did a survey. I have I have hundreds of guys in my groups too and so I did a survey with my man. I'm like maybe this is incorrect, maybe the ladies really are empathy monsters, maybe they were just brilliant at it. Let's check and see. And so I asked three questions. I said do your feelings matter to you? And I said yes. I said do you feel like your feelings matter to her? And all of them said no, except for three guys. But two of them were in the first two weeks of their relationship and they both failed. And one guy was in denial about his relationship and they got divorced. So like I'm like I'm still at 100% if I look at this no empathy for a hundred guys. Stop the survey at 100. I was like I have nobody saying yes. And the last question was do you wish that she did care about your feelings? And they all said yes. And so women are really showing empathy.

Speaker 1: 23:04

For men that's a very different thing Now. They mix up empathy and well-being. Like, well, I took care of his, you know dishes, or I did the, I packed his lunch, or I you know his laundry was done. I'm like, which one of those is a feeling? Like those aren't feelings, you know. And like, well, he needs to be the rock for my relationship. Tim needs to be the rock. And I'm like, well, that sounds awesome. What feelings do rocks have? Yeah, they do not have feelings.

Speaker 1: 23:30

And so, to have this need for connection, I found our guys when we started doing our support. We do daily support. I had that call right before I talked to you. I had about 30 guys just on a call going, hey, I just need that backup today, and we do that every single day to make sure if any guys are in it, they're not in it alone, you know, and they hit those rock bottoms when they hit. And so I'm like, hey, we need training and I'm with you with the connection. But men don't have connection. We're isolated. And you talked about the self-medication, especially when it goes to alcohol. Boys drink right away. That's why I say name a country song and hip hop, hip hop song that don't have drinking.

Speaker 2: 24:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:07

Like they're almost all at the bar or at the club. Everyone's drinking and I'm like we drink to meet the girl, we drink. When we lose the girl, we're always drinking. And I'm like every coping mechanism says distract yourself through alcohol. No wonder so many people go right to the bottle. And so the isolation and the need for distraction when you do not have connection seems like without mentor, supporter belonging, it goes right to distraction from the reality. And then we're judged for that too. You're not empathized, you're not going.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Man, my guy just got hurt. Man, his heart just got broken. Oh damn, that dude got blasted. He lost his business, his wife, he lost his kids. He doesn't get to see them now every other fucking weekend. And he was the guy who took care of everything. He didn't cheat, he wasn't beating her, he was a good dude and just lost everything. Like, yeah, well, he'll bounce on his feet, figure it out. No, everything that guy lives for was just taken away. He's supposed to just what? Pull his bootstraps up. He's got no support. And so our guys come in and they're going to go. Man, I, just I got to bounce this off of somebody. Nobody gives a fuck. And you go like, damn Tim, I fucking see you, bro. I'm in this with you. How can I serve and how can I be of service? Dude, I see you. It's not about me, it's about you. Today, let's have your day, we are.

Speaker 1: 25:29

I don't know how you guys deal with the suicide talks on this, but this isolation with distraction, it makes suicide very logical. It's very difficult to justify suicide not being the most logical thing when you are all alone with the demons and they get free reign fear, doubt, anger, distraction, suppression, anxiety, these things. It's a team sport and if you're playing solo and you don't have your own team, you're going to get your fucking ass kicked, and they do, and the only logical thing is to end the game. And so I don't know how you guys have dealt with this, but we have found that I used to have to take those I mean the only one qualified in our group to take those calls and so I had to take those calls, to be almost every week. Now these thoughts still come up, but it's not as severe as it used to be, so it's easier to be. But we started a group at night, just a night group.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Hang out, not do the deep work, not go into battle. Just, you belong. And the guys who would be at the middle of the night drinking Jack Daniels next to a fucking gun, like those guys, now had a place where, like, I don't want to hear what you have to say, man, and you are important to me and I value you better here and you're important man, you're like, you're not a piece of shit, you're actually one of us and I'm happy to hear your story and, damn, you went through that. You matter to me. And no, no deep work, like you said that guy at the front door. I didn't go and do any deep work with him, I just said you're important, man, and I like to hear what you have to say. And sometimes that fucking glimmer of hope is enough for a guy to go. I'm not ending it today because somebody gave a fuck. And that's the game we're in today, where our guys are like nobody gives a fuck about me, man.

Speaker 2: 27:04

Not about my little buddy, Not me. A lot of guys feel that way. A lot of guys feel that way and I've dealt with that over the years. I myself had close encounters with that where I just wanted to end it. And what I found?

Speaker 2: 27:18

As a majority of guys, they don't actually want to die. What they want to do is they think about suicide, because even just the thought of suicide gives them some temporary relief and temporary escape. It's like even just the thought takes them temporarily away from the pain for one moment, one second. And inside it's like what does that say? It speaks to a guy's powerlessness. It speaks to his hopelessness. It speaks to where he's really at at this juncture inside of his life that he literally is thinking about. And here's the one that really killed me. People would be better off if I'm not around.

Speaker 2: 27:53

And the sad part is when a guy is at that position and you actually get to talk and do them and you actually start digging into what is actually causing these things, he feels like a burden and it's like, brother, check it out. Like have you ever seen another man be vulnerable? Yeah, I have. Have you ever judged that man? Have you ever felt like he was burdening you with his problems. No, actually he was glad I made me feel good, like I could help him, Cool man. So you feeling like a burden has nothing to do with this conversation. It has everything to do with what kind of message you were sent about your emotions being a burden when you were younger, and that was about somebody else's trauma and pain that they projected onto you about. Well, your feelings are a burden here. Why? Because they had no resources and no ability to actually help you, so they'd rather just invalidate you and not have that conversation with you. We're not doing that here.

Speaker 1: 28:47

Well, here's the funny thing with this. I'm right with you. Here's another way I turned that I'm like, because I like how you did the thing where you said, hey, did you ever help a guy who was having a hard time? I was like, yeah, how'd you feel? It's like I felt good, man, I like helping guys. I'm like, so how come you're the only one allowed to feel like that?

Speaker 2: 29:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Why can't somebody help you when they feel good too? Why are you the only one who's allowed to have the monopoly on feeling good? Why can't other people feel good, too, from you being helped? You feel good, helping people. Let them feel good too. Why you got to bode out all the feel goods?

Speaker 2: 29:22

And they're like oh yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1: 29:23

So I'm like dude, I'm going to have my day, man, I'm going to have my day where I get knocked down, I'm going to get blasted and I'll be like, oh, we're on the front line. Are you going to laugh and judge or hold your hand down? Go get up, brother. It's your fucking, it's your turn, you're down. We switch spots.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Life doesn't take it easy on us. You know, what's funny is I keep thinking, as we're having this conversation, I keep thinking about the warrior's way, I keep thinking about that and that keeps coming up for me and I keep thinking about so many times as men, men, look at their problems and they don't want to talk about their pain, they don't want to talk about their past because they feel like they're making excuses. Right, it's like, or I'm blaming something and it's like, bro, like we're not blaming anybody, Like we're not, we're not blaming anyone. A lot of this is conditioning, it's generational. Number one and number two is these things aren't excuses, they're reasons.

Speaker 2: 30:18

You know, I've always told people if you got a pit bull from the shelter and, let's say, you took that dog home and you had a barbecue with some of your friends, you know, and one of your buddies went to go reach out to pet your dog and your dog kind of maybe snarled at him and showed his teeth or maybe put his table between his legs and ran into his dog house and your friend was like, hey man, what's wrong with your dog? All you would have to say is, oh, he's a rescue. And without knowing anything about that dog's history, people would automatically attribute the way the dog acted to the way the dog was raised or experiences that happened in that dog's life. So it's not excuses, it's reasons. Right? If you had a tree in the backyard and it didn't produce good fruit the fruit was bitter you would look at the root system, you would look at the soil, you would look at the conditions that it's in. So it's all about really, as a man, like stepping out of that and really realizing like there's a bigger story here. You're not talking about people, you're talking about conditioning, you're talking about programming, you're talking about right. You're talking about things that have impacted you and operated in your life without your consent.

Speaker 2: 31:21

And what it really means, right, to step into a place of warrior in your life. It means becoming multi-dimensional right, you can't solve every problem with force and understanding that like, hey, if somebody attacks me on the street with a machete, like oh, don't get it twisted I'm absolutely capable of violence. Right, I am, believe me, I know what I'm capable of. But at the same time, if my daughter falls off her bike and skins her knee, I'm also capable of empathy and compassion If my wife is hurting because maybe she got let go from her job. Like I'm also capable of active listening and being present and being calm. Like I'm able to meet the moment with whatever the moment most requires from me. It's my ability to be multi-dimensional.

Speaker 2: 32:08

It's not like I think a lot of guys think like oh, I'm going to start talking about my feelings and I'm going to become like this emotional dude and I don't want to do that. Like then I'm going to lose my. It's like no, bro, those parts of you are still there. What we're doing is we're making you more comprehensive man. You're making yourself a more comprehensive man. You're stepping into a place where you're becoming not just this one dimensional cardboard cut out of what you thought you needed to be right For society. It's like you're becoming multi-dimensional. You're becoming a multi-dimensional man and that's the power. Right Is when you, when guys understand that like okay, so you're not taking something away from me. This is only adding on to who I am. This is only making me more of the man that I was called to be by God.

Speaker 1: 32:51

There's a yin-yang to it and I call it mind, heart, body, soul, and so you've got mind and body and this is the you know, no and do. And then you've got spirit, which is connect, and then you've got heart, which is feel, and most of our guys want to neglect the parts that seem illogical. We got I got a lot of engineer types, that's a logical captain, like the Spock ones, like they're like why would I have a feeling that just gets in the way of the task, like I don't need to connect with this? You know those elements of ourselves. And so, being multi-dimensional, this is when I first started doing this.

Speaker 1: 33:24

I was looking at which guys have a higher aptitude in which things, and I called body side, my paladins, you know. I called heart side my Spartans, the fire, you know. I called the spirit side, my Jedi's. There's a force you can't see, but it's there. And then I have my generals, or my tactician, or my strategist. Those are my mind side and I'm like which one do you relate with most? And I would tell stories of each one, and then here's how they handle. So I feel more like the strategist, or I'm more of a paladin or I'm a Spartan, you know, I can feel which side. And as I keep working through guys, I realized a couple of years ago I'm like we're not one or even a combination of two, we are all. It's just which ones are the highest levels, which ones have we put the most work into, and I realized it's a yin-yang. So mind and body are both action and doing, and then heart and spirit are both about being.

Speaker 1: 34:15

And I started catching on that the rules are reversed and that's why guys really struggle with the other side to it is because on mind and body like surrender is a bad fucking word I do not quit, I will fight, I will fucking keep on, you quit, I'm never surrender, I will never surrender. Right. And then on the spirit side, it's like surrender, man, it'll make you 10 times stronger. Love, you don't force in. Love, you fall in love, you let go, you let go, you let go of surrender to it You're like no, no, no, surrender is bad, no, never, no, no, I'm like you're not understanding the balance between us. When you surrender, on that side you're 10 times stronger. It's like going super, say in you got to surrender, you got to let that part go, so that way you can control the energy element. And you're like, nope, when I see the denial between the multi-dimensional stuff, when I I watch the patterns the biggest curses I've seen for men and women the denial is the one that gets everybody.

Speaker 1: 35:16

It's the root for addiction. It's the root cause for people to lose their life. It's because denial takes your minutes from you. You live a persona or you live a fake, alternative version of yourself to try to belong or fit in or not be judged or exiled or hated.

Speaker 1: 35:33

And so men have to do a suppression of feelings. We have to. We learn that crying nobody gives a fuck and they don't. And today society says, no, we want your vulnerability. And then I get call after call, just like you do. It's like, yeah, I ugly cried in front of my wife and she won't sleep with me anymore. You're like what the fuck happened? She said she wanted vulnerability. I just let it all out, I unloaded, and now we sleep in separate bedrooms and I don't know what the fuck just happened. I did the thing that she said and it's like there's a system for radical acceptance that's missing. So guys start suppressing, we start denying our feelings. Suck it up, be a man, cowboy up, don't be a bitch, that's bitch shit. You're like wait a second being human is that shit.

Speaker 2: 36:15

That's the part that really kills me when I see people like online, like push that narrative and what it is is. It's like all you're forcing a guy to do is overcompensate further. All you're forcing him to do is walk further and further into the desert, away from the oasis. That was his healing process, it's like. So all you're doing is you're guiding them on a path that already didn't work, but you're just taking them further and further and further on that path. The reality is is there is like that's just pure force Again, like you're trying to solve every problem with force.

Speaker 2: 36:48

The same power through mentality using certain situations is like a round peg through a square hole in others. So I love what you said about the vulnerability piece and I've always looked at it like there's healthy vulnerability and then there's unhealthy vulnerability Right. And then there's a vulnerability where we engage in self pity and self loathing and we're a victim and we cry and we don't really want support. We don't really want feedback, we don't really want solution, we just want attention or we want people to validate where we're at and why we're, the excuses that we have and rationalizations and justifications about why we do what we do Right. And then there's healthy vulnerability. It's a guy that's scared to open up. It's a guy who doesn't want to talk, but he finally starts to do that and he talks about his problem, but he's eager for a solution.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Help me through this. I don't know. I'm lost, brother. What do you got from me here? Thank you for telling me I'm not alone man and this is hard for me, but I want to work through this. And I think a lot of men, when they think about vulnerability they have, it has a negative connotation attached to it. They look at it like it's a negative thing, like it's a liability, and the sad part is is they've created relationships because of a lot of their denial and because of a lot of their facade. They've created or been attracted to women and relationships that would not actually support the evolved version of them. So I always tell guys like look, man, you're going to either evolve out of this relationship or evolve with your partner, but regardless, like you got to take the lead. And a lot of people ask me like why don't you ever talk about women's issues? Because I'm not a woman.

Speaker 1: 38:32

You know it's oh, man, you're in my, you're in my, my head, before you go into the next thing, because you just, you just fucking dropped a bomb. I don't think people will catch the like you. Okay, you said some things. I don't think you get the vulnerability element of things, but you also talked about the way the guys come in with victim mentality, eventing and not wanting solutions and not wanting. I just want you to hear me. I just want to feel heard. I want to be loved for being, and men are not loved for being. We're not.

Speaker 1: 39:00

And so when we look to our woman to do the same thing they expect us to do. It's very important, I use that word. I expect you to be able to be my, my person I can vent to. Well, we both know people aren't trained to take someone's unload. We're not, and men aren't built for that. Just so I know ladies, I tell our ladies go, vent to your friends and then make a list of what you actually want solved and then bring that to your guy, because we want to solve all of them and we probably can, and so that's annoying. It's annoying to you.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Well, when a guy does the same thing to a girl. He doesn't get the validation from his woman. Remember, they don't show empathy to their man, especially if we're both unhealthy when we started and they're going to be like, no, you're not being a real man, and then they'll start looking elsewhere to fit their needs, which they don't know, but it changes on a daily basis. You're just not it, though, hypergum, you will kick in, in which case the guy is looking for having the, the reciprocity, and that's not going to happen. So guys need to have a place where I can go. Tim, I got me open with you, dude, I'm fucking hurting today, man, and you go. What is it, bro? Let me hear, instead of like what are you going to do about it?

Speaker 1: 40:10

Yeah, you know, well, if you're having a problem, what am I supposed to do? If you're not okay, how am I going to be okay? I guess I have to do everything. Then You're like wait a second, no, I'm just having a day. Well, I can't trust that you're not going to have another day and I won't be okay. I need safety, security, reliability, stability, any all of these things. And you're not being that because you've shown your two week to handle a day.

Speaker 2: 40:33

Yeah, that entitled attitude towards that where where it's like and I've seen this time in time again where we'll be on a call with a gentleman and then he'll say, well, I need to get my wife involved for the decision, and it's like, and he's will not budge on that, Okay, we try to talk him through it, he's not open to it.

Speaker 2: 40:50

We get his wife on the call and his wife talks for an hour about how big of a piece of shit he is Correct but yet, ironically, when it comes time for him to change, she sabotages his ability to change with her confirmation bias of saying, well, you know, I don't think he's going to change. No, no, no, no, no. The reality is your contempt is so real in this relationship and you don't want him to change because you haven't had to look at yourself for 25 years, because he's the primary problem in your mind and he's got all the problems. But no, the reality is you know that he's going to change in this program and when this man changes and evolves, you know that you're. Everything that you use, that was maladaptive and dysfunctional, no longer, is necessary or works Well to be exposed. Yeah, it'll all be exposed.

Speaker 1: 41:32

And it'll also show that her system of control over will then be challenged.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Yes.

Speaker 1: 41:38

And she will lose control if she allows either of us in. We fuck that up for people, majorly. We fuck that up, and I can man my heart to you. I actually had a come to Jesus moment it was about a year and a half, maybe two years ago where I was seeing the same thing where when you build a healthy man from an unhealthy man, he is confident, solid, knows thyself, has good boundaries, understands, like, hey, these are my limits and not limits, I will not over commit, I will do as I say, like a solid, fucking warrior, I will go in, I will protect, I will provide, I will preside, I will be the man that this house needs and my children need.

Speaker 1: 42:17

Well, the people who start, you know, getting upset are the ones who, when they make boundaries, were the ones getting the most when they had no boundaries. Yeah, and it starts exposing the lack of health and the relationship. And so I started having more breakups and more divorces because there would be such a difference. And they go. Wait a second. I now recognize I was toxic, she is toxic, I'm no longer toxic, she's still toxic. And now she has the choice grow with or sabotage. And when they start going, sabotage, sabotage, sabotage and they go.

Speaker 1: 42:51

I will not budge from being good. I'm being a good man and I will stay being a good man and I will not. I will not lower myself because you won't grow. And it started creating a lot of divorces and I'm like guys. I'm actually kind of curious if I'm really creating more dysfunction than function, if I'm really creating disorder instead of order. And all of my guys who were divorced were like bro, I was in a living fucking nightmare and didn't even know what. I didn't have my balls, I didn't have my confidence, I didn't have the will or purpose to live, I didn't have anything and that lady was draining me of every ounce of humanity that I had. I was in a very toxic place because she chose me when I was in a toxic place and I'm no longer toxic and I don't want to drink bleach just because I'm thirsty.

Speaker 2: 43:42

No, and it's sad because I always tell guys it's like how many guys I encounter that end up in either A an emotional affair, or B a physical affair, where it gets sexual, and they are even unclear that it's like brother first of all. Nobody does that. If they're happy inside their marriage, Okay, so let's start there and we could blame you all day long, but and I'm not at all and at all co-signing what you did, be clear on that but what I want to tell you is what this is really about for you is when we really dig into it. It's about validation, it's about affirmation, it's about recognition, about them feeling seen and heard and like somebody actually cares. It's about them feeling emotionally connected beyond anything else. I mean, that's why most of these guys they'll engage in behavioral patterns that are all about trying to fill a need that's not being filled inside their marriage. So, but the problem is is that then they acknowledge it and it compounds on what they've already done. It's like bad me again. It goes back to the shame and the guilt and what I haven't done, and then what happens is you made a really good point, Like with the sabotaging right Is so many guys have put themselves in a position where I tell them this it's like look, brother, you have two choices in the beginning.

Speaker 2: 45:05

It's either walk away or stay Okay. All right, I'm going to stay Okay. So if you're going to stay, then this requires you right. You have to take extreme ownership for why your relationship is the way it is, because here's the deal. At the very end of this, at the very end of this, you can still win, because what happens is either A you work on your mindset, you work on your emotional intelligence, right you work on your conflict resolution, your communication skills, right you learn how to walk this path to become a multi-dimensional man and you either A save your marriage or B the marriage doesn't work out, but at least you have total clarity, knowing why, and are able to arm yourself with that knowledge and that insight and impart that or deploy that into your future, into the next relationship, and prepare yourself for whatever God has for you next.

Speaker 2: 45:58

But get away from this codependency of I just want to get my wife back. I just want to get my wife back because now your whole motivation for changing is extrinsic and most guys they don't change. As men, we usually don't choose to change or want to change until the house is on fire, until things are burning to the ground and we need to run inside to rescue people. So the reality is, as men, we sometimes, when we're in that denial, like you were saying right, we're in that denial and it becomes so bad that finally we get reactive instead of being proactive. And what happens when we're in that reactive state? It's like their wives are so angry at them and their motivation to change doesn't come until that she throws out the divorce. I want a divorce. It doesn't come until she says I'm seeing another guy, so or I'm so mad at you, there's so much contempt that I can't even respect you or talk to you and there's no physical intimacy. So their motivation initially is external, so their goals are external. It's like I just want my wife back. I just want my wife back.

Speaker 2: 46:55

I try to convince guys and tell guys all the time that look, brother, this is about you. Like, this is about you. You got to do this for you, you got to believe that you're worth this. And on the other side of this, I understand you want your wife back. But what if that doesn't happen? And let me ask you this like a lot of guys think that they're attracted to their wife, but a lot of times they realize it's not attraction, it's recognition.

Speaker 2: 47:21

Right, the brain is a survival organ. It seeks to recreate the same dynamics you've already encountered. So a lot of times you're in a relationship with somebody that mirrors and mimics a former relationship with either your dad or your mom, or some type of dysfunctional pattern where you ended up in a place that you call home because it's familiar and it feels safe and normal, even though it's completely juxtaposed, in the antithesis of what you actually want. And so the reality is you are trying to conform to a system that is designed to keep you feeling the way you felt for 20, 30, 40 years, and the reality is this new, evolved, actualized version of you who becomes empowered and becomes truly changed. Brother, do you even think that version of you is compatible inside this relationship? And then what they always say is like I don't know, I don't know. Okay, are you willing to find out?

Speaker 1: 48:18

You have the courage to go in and find out. Man, you're just slaying shit right now. I really I want people to go back with their fucking notebooks, because you're saying things. I'm going to go back through this but, man, the wisdom you're putting down here, I don't think people are going to catch on. They'll just grab onto a piece of it and then move forward, because a lot of the things you're saying, you're stacking a bunch of different lessons together and I don't think people are going to get it. And I don't say it because they're not intelligent, because there's so much, so fast.

Speaker 1: 48:49

And so no, you and I both. That's why I've got three pages already. I'm taking notes because I pay attention. That's why I'm not paying attention, I'm writing, and so there's a few things. I'm going to just go back over to see if we can get people to catch what you said.

Speaker 1: 49:06

First off, the shame, the guilt, the judgments that are put on. People do create the issues and you're not wrong, our hardest thing is hurting cats. Guys don't seek opinions, help or anything until they're in crisis. And you're not wrong. And guys will come in like, dude, she's fucking burning the house down. And we're like well, did you get the fire extinguisher system we talked about? Like I didn't even know about it, dude, she's already on fire. I'm fucked. Dude, I'm fucked. And we're like you probably could have prevented some of this ahead of time.

Speaker 1: 49:33

But this is the issue with guys. If guys are proactive, especially through autonomy, this is their independence. If they're proactive in autonomy, they're judged. You must be just looking at the door, you're a piece of shit, you're not really, you don't really love your person judged. But if a guy is reactive, like oh shit, the house is on fire, she's unhappy, her needs aren't met and I didn't know, also judged. Guys are being judged like crazy. There's no win for men right now. Being proactive is bad, being reactive is bad, and so crisis is the only time they go. I don't fucking have it. I fucking don't have it. I don't, can you help me now?

Speaker 1: 50:07

So we have to play damage control, often very quickly. The choices to stay or to go based on shame and guilt and judgment. Even today, have to pull guys out of guilt, the regrets. I should have done this or I didn't do that, or I wish I would have known that and I could have done this, which is a link to bargaining, which is a big part of it too. And you get into the people who are like man, guilt, guilt, guilt. And I'm like, well, what's guilt for? And what people don't understand about guilt is? It's only necessary for one thing it's the flashlight to point to the thing that you made the mistake on. I either did something or didn't do something, and it confuses with shame. Guilt is feeling bad for what I did or didn't do. Shame is feeling bad for what I am, not the same, but people confuse them often and so guilt is just there to go.

Speaker 1: 50:56

Hey, you made a mistake. You're like okay, cool. What's a mistake for? Well, a mistake is for learning lessons. That's what the mistake is for. The only way it's really a mistake is if you didn't learn from it. So if you learned from it, the mistake just leveled you up. Now I learned. Next time I would do it this way. Great, so you leveled up. So are you upset now that you leveled up and you learned something? Well, no, I'm not upset about that. I'm like great. So the guilt was just there to point to the thing you needed to learn. You learned the thing. Let's get rid of that shit. You learned, you leveled up. Now you are wiser. You are a better man. Now Don't do the same mistake again. You learned. Congratulations If we can put some of these belief systems in there. Not that the guilt is meant to give me shame, but the guilt is meant to level me up. We'll learn the lesson and then get wiser and stronger. Now you are a better pack leader instead of being the liability and these guys give their power away.

Speaker 1: 51:52

And when you talked about the missing pieces to stay or go, or am I going to save the marriage and you talked about I'm going to get my wife back. That's my purpose Get my wife back. I'm like I think that that marriage died, dude. You're going to have to start another one and you're going to have to be a guy who's worthy of getting the relationship. How would you win that girl if you met her? How would you get start over? You don't get to go back to who you were. You guys know too much. You've been through too much shit. You can't go backwards but you can go forward, because those people who fell in love are still in there. But you're going to have to be better than you were before to do it. So are you going to do what you said? Find your worth. That's in it for you to be the guy who could win that girl Not win her back, but win her now. And is she a girl who's worth winning now? Because you'll look at her level and go. She's really fucking mean man. I don't know if I want a second. There's people where I'm like I don't know if you'd get a second date. Like if we went on that date, I don't know if you're worth the second date. You're really fucking mean and you're not nice and you nag and complain and you're mean and I wouldn't give you a second date, and so is it really like? Is the winning worth winning? And that goofs people up too.

Speaker 1: 53:11

You put some good points here the co-dependency versus autonomy. I think that you and I are aligned here. I'm not a relationship coach and you're like I'm not a woman. I have women's groups, but I have women run them. I'm like I'm leaving it alone. I did it for seven years. I'm not doing that anymore. It's not my thing. And so we looked at the autonomy as the only thing that guys have right now, and it's not meant to be cruel to your ultimatums, and I think that's where guys goof it up. I don't know if you've seen that too.

Speaker 2: 53:38

Oh yeah, I don't know, I don't know, guys, they think that, they think that.

Speaker 1: 53:42

Yeah, I'll leave and everything. Oh, you don't like the towels folded half, you want them tri-folded? I'll fucking leave this bitch, I'll remove all of it. And you're like slow down, man. That's just an agreement. Now, if she's like I want another boyfriend and I'm going to go fuck him on the side, well, now it goes against non-negotiables. Well, now you can go. Well, if you do want another boyfriend, that's a break of loyalty and trust. I can't be with someone like that. So now I have to remove provision. These are different conversations, so like people will start using it incorrectly. But again, this is where I actually want your expertise. I want your experiences on this one.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Autonomy seems to be the only weapon guys can use right now to be able to have any type of enforcement for their value, and I am open if you have a better system, because I haven't heard anyone yet. I've asked this many times. Is there a better way for men to hold their line than autonomy? It's independence for guys who don't know what the fuck that word means. You have the ability to go if you need to go, just as she could have the ability to go if they need to go. If it's unhealthy, I can leave, whereas some people have the co-dependency If they don't know what autonomy means.

Speaker 2: 54:49

I think of it in terms of a lot of guys try to lead with dominance instead of leading with influence, and it's important that they don't confuse autonomy and sovereignty over their life with dominance. Right that there is a flexibility and an open-mindedness in that process, and that the reality is that they have to become somebody who lives a life that's above reproach. It doesn't mean you're perfect, brother, but what it means is that you've got to get yourself to a place where you're undeniable. Your wife walks down, your wife is asleep and she wakes up and walks down to get coffee and you're in the kitchen with your shirt off, right Like in a protein shake because you just got back from the gym. Right, you're in a position in your life where you're showing her. You're creating a man that, in reality, through his autonomous self-development, personal development journey, you're creating a guy that's worth pursuing. And you're creating a guy that, at the end of this process, it's not about who he's you know, what he's attaining and what he's acquiring. It's about who he's becoming, who he's being, who he is. So it's not the old process of like you know, if I just have these things, then I can do these things and I can be this person, it's like no, no, no, if I am this person, if I become this person, then I can do these things and I can have these things. And so leadership is key.

Speaker 2: 56:24

Now, a lot of the guys, they don't realize that their wife is lost. Their wife is at the same degree of feeling lost and confused as they were when they began. And they look at it and they have these expectations placed on their wife, like somehow their wife knows how to get out of this maze, like untie the straight jacket, and it's like, well, your wife has no idea how to do that, but you through your own journey and your own process. That's why self-awareness, self-awareness has the highest exchange rate out of any of the quadrants of emotional intelligence, more than motivation, social skills, relationship management, more than any of them. Why? Because it's like self-awareness that you develop inside, when you truly, truly can look inside and decipher and decode all that esoteric language that goes on inside of you and you get it and you understand it and you unlock doors. It's like in the beginning of the journey.

Speaker 2: 57:15

It's like standing on a hillside and you and I are looking at the sky and I go hey, what do you see? And you're like what do you mean? And I go, what do you see? And you're like stars. No, hey, what do you see? And you're like I don't. And you're getting frustrated. I don't know, man, like fucking stars. I don't know. What are you asking me? And it's like, right, okay, now I'm going to take you to school for astronomy and astrology and I take you to school for a couple of months and then we go back to that same hillside and say hey, point to the same sky and say what do you see? And you're like, oh, geez. And you go, man, there's a Sagittarius, aquarius. There's Gemini, big Dipper, little Dipper. You see, you're looking at the same thing, but what you see is something entirely different, meaning you see the gateway, you see the code, you see the matrix. It's like Neo and the Matrix. When, right, agent Smith, he fired the bullets and he sees them come and he stops the bullet and says no, right, he says no and then he sees the code. It all makes sense, he understands it and he's in a program.

Speaker 2: 58:21

The way to get somebody else to change is through influence. It's like when we were changed, it wasn't because we were coerced, right, it's because we felt inspired, we felt motivated by somebody else's journey. But a lot of guys have to get under right. They're under like they're under their wife, in this position of contempt where their wife doesn't respect them. So they got to get to a place where, like their wife, might not like them, but, oh wow, she'll respect how he operates and how he lives his life. Because he lives his life in a way where he's a rare individual, right, he's not who he used to be and you can have all the confirmation bias you want, he's undeniable. He's undeniable in the way he lives his life mind, body, soul, spirit, as we talked about.

Speaker 2: 59:07

And he's in a position now where she's looking at him and she's looking at how he's impervious to her emotional states, where her emotions don't dictate his mood and his day, right, and he's at a place in his autonomy where he's available for that stuff. But he's not codependent. He understands where he ends and where she begins. He's taken back his independence. He's taken back his self-worth, his self-esteem, his self-confidence. He's building these things. He's not relying on her to do that and he's growing at a fast rate and she's getting to a point and this happens all the time inside the program where he's getting to a point where she starts to become curious about his journey, about like hey, how are you not getting reactive anymore? How are you? I'm starting to realize that you're making me really uncomfortable because you're available for me but you're not looking at me as I am your number one purpose and pursuit in this world. If that's making me realize that I need to get my shit together, I need to start working on myself.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

A lot of people say, like it takes two to tango. It does, but the reality is a lot of times it only takes one. It takes one guy to come be first in the breach. A lot of guys are standing right. It's like they're standing at the Alamo with their wife and they're like who's going to fire the first shot? You change, no, you change. No, you change, no, you change. It's like, well, I'll change when you change, like, well, you need to change. It's just this resentment building and it's like, brother, you're wasting your life, you're wasting your breath, you're wasting your air. You got life to live. Let's get you back to a place where you get your edge back. Let's align you and connect you with some real individuals to a wrong path. To help you right. Let's develop some strategies towards solving these problems and let's get you back to a place that, no matter what happens in your marriage, you're going to be okay and you can walk away with your head held high.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

I had a guy inside my group actually just sent this to me yesterday. Yesterday, he just sent me this text. This is from his wife. I'll read it here. And his wife says you're an amazing person, despite what happened. His wife ended up having an affair. She said, and despite what happened, you're carrying yourself like a real man, like I never knew, like I never could in your place, and that's exemplary. Know that I always considered myself a strong person, but damn, you're so much more mentally disciplined than I ever could be, and that's strength that I admire in you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:39

Now he's decided that he's going to move forward in his life and he's going to end the relationship. But the reality is it's like okay, I told him to. I said be proud of that. That's your character, brother. That says everything about you. How easy it could have been for you to go the other direction, but you didn't do that. Right, you can have your health held high.

Speaker 2: 1:01:57

And here's the reality for all the guys that are out there who've been cheated on. Right, you're worried about this next relationship. That whole relationship is built on the weakest, worst foundation ever. It's built on a foundation of lies, secrecy and deception. So don't ever fear that that relationship is going to become some magical thing. That it is. You know what it is. It's magical. It's a big dopamine spike for your wife right now and when you walk away from this relationship, right, that person's going to have to find out the hard way and just do the right thing for yourself and have dignity and self-respect, because that's what this is. If you don't have those things, it doesn't matter about getting your wife back. You're always going to be in a position where you don't ever feel good about you and your whole entire sense of existence lies outside of you.

Speaker 1: 1:02:42

Man, you are not wrong. Man, these are the stories, man, these are the things that are out there, the guys who find their worth, the guys who find their character, find their leadership, find their strength. And again, man, the bombs that you're dropping here. I hope people are taking notes, like I hope they are, because I have the same experiences, because we do what is right, not about who is right, and we pull these guys right out of their bullshit and they are. There's bullshit, it's always us, shut the fuck up. It's always us. It's us first. We have to go first. There's no question. I'm not waiting for her, I'm going. She's either coming or she's not. That's it Like. I'm going either way. Are you coming with me or are you going to stay here and bitch? That's it. I'm going either way. And so they don't understand that we're going to lead by doing and I really enjoy it. I'm going to go back to the beginning. It's dominance over influence, the obligation over being excited, the force versus lead.

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

You said walk in the walk, and I think this is something that guys forget, and this is where I'm going to push on our boys a little bit the complacency because you have commitment, and this is where the stuff you used to do to get her, you quit doing it. You quit the chivalry, you quit the dates. You quit the effort. You quit trying for some reason Now not to say she didn't bullshit. Her bullshit I'm not saying, usually she does too, but you can only be accountable to your part. She's accountable to hers. Did you stop doing the things that you did to pursue and we work our asses off to get her? But then we dropped the ball on maintenance Like you got her. Now you're going to keep her, like you're going to keep working. And I think this is something I try to remind the guys too Just because you guys have commitment doesn't mean the wool stop hunting.

Speaker 2: 1:04:25

Just because they.

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

Just because you're like I commit to you, doesn't mean the other guys aren't like. If you got a good girl doesn't mean that they stopped hunting. And if you start becoming soft, you start becoming incapable. You start becoming, you know, I'm no longer present, I'm no longer putting in effort, I'm no longer taking care of me, I'm no longer okay. And you start getting complacent. The wolves still hunt, they're still out there. Just because you domesticated Doesn't mean the wolves went away. She's going to start doing the.

Speaker 1: 1:04:55

I call it the beauty and the beast where at one point you were in apex, at one point you were the best option. At one point your potential was higher At one point, but then something changed where you stopped going for it. It could be having kids, it could be getting married. And you're absolutely right where we start taking on the traits of what we believe marriage is and most of the guys might go like so are you more like mom or dad? Right now, I'm like fuck, I'm my mother. Oh, I married my dad. Fuck, you know. Like. They're like damn it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:26

That's true, and it does happen. This happens more than it doesn't, and so we get complacent and we try and use commitment to control. You're my wife, you need to start doing this and doing that, or you're my husband, you need to do this and that, and the ownership starts creating resentment. You need to be what I want you to be, regardless of what it takes for you to be it, and we have to be accountable to ourselves. I like that thing. She comes down and listen. My baby's got her coffee ready already. When she comes in with her big lion's mane hair, that coffee is ready for my baby. I might use some coffee I got you, but I'll be in there, like you said, protein shake.

Speaker 2: 1:06:04

Yeah, protein shake, like sending a message of hey when everybody was asleep. I won't miss, I'll be unstoppable, I will be undeniable, I will be the guy who will be unfuck withable, where you will look at me and you will say, yeah, the guy's not perfect by any means, but damn, he's dialed, damn, he's on point. And I think a big thing I wanted to mention and this is something that I've been bringing up a lot with our guys is and I think this is a very valuable piece for anybody listening as men, it's important to look at our reward system and the way we're wired from an evolutionary perspective and a lot of times we establish these goals inside our career, like I'm going to achieve. The reason a lot of us are so work addicted is because we achieve dopamine hits and dopamine spikes at work. That last deal that you got it's the last, it's a new quarter and you reached your KPIs and milestones. You're establishing targets that you want to hit inside your business. So a lot of times you're very wired because the pursuit of those targets is motivated by dopamine.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

Unfortunately, inside of our marriage, you have a lot of times like what was in it when you were courting your wife and you initially met and you were pursuing her. It's like the idea at first was like hey, I want to establish intimacy, and then you achieve that. And then it's like I want to get married and you achieve that. And then it's like I want to buy a house, and then you achieve that, and I want to have kids, and then you achieve that. But then, beyond that point, what we don't do as men is we don't have those weekly deadlines, we don't have those weekly KPIs, we don't have those monthly, yearly goals, we don't have anything established in our marriage where our reward system is wired around achieving it.

Speaker 2: 1:07:53

It's like so what we have is just this stagnant, dull thing where it's like I've achieved what I've achieved, I've arrived and here I am and there's nothing more to do or accomplish inside this marriage. So there isn't anything to pursue, there isn't any goal to go after. So there is no dopamine, so there is no motivation, so there is no incentive, so there is no drive, so there is no commitment. So there is no action, so there is nothing, there's just me existing. And now here I am on my phone and here I am getting these dopamine hits wherever else I can, and guys go to the porn and they go here, they go there or they're working at home, when they should know that they should be present. And then their wife saying hey, why are you on your phone? Why are you working right now? And they're getting reactive. Because why, underneath it all, they know that they want to be present, but they don't know why they need to be present and what they're actually trying to accomplish by being present.

Speaker 1: 1:08:48

Man. So it's really powerful the way you connected, the way that we work through our reward system for achievement and success versus our reward system from love and relationship. And it's a good member. It's the yin and yang. Mind and body is like I know I have a tactics and now I'm going to execute. That's work. Then, when it comes to the surrender element of like, how do I surrender my heart and soul to you and or our relationship? And we're like I'm not doing that shit, I'm on work mode and maybe I can work our relationship? And I think that's one of the things where you mentioned the word connection.

Speaker 1: 1:09:23

I think people have the wrong definitions. They don't, they just make up like okay, well, we're near each other. It's like, no, shut the fuck up for a second and feel each other Right. Like I think you're missing it. Connection isn't a, it's not my phone connection. No, it's like can you feel your lady and can she feel you?

Speaker 1: 1:09:42

And if she doesn't, there's a thing there to talk about, because a lot of our ladies are holding back that element too, like we're not connected, but who's going to lead? It's got to be us and we are the standard. So, when it comes to a what's the next level for the KPI? Well, you're building it. So what's the next level? It's you, man, you're the next level, and I say this in a way it's not meant to be as derogatory as I'm sure it sounds, but listen to the lesson and not the judgments is where I talk about. Our guys need to lead with purpose, and we're built for leading. We're built for purpose. We have to. It's core in our needs is to have purpose, and our ladies love a guy with potential. They love the element of safety, security, they love the potential to be able to push, and I also believe there's elements of ladies that are very positive, that have been turned negative, like never being satisfied. You know those elements are there too, but I talked about it as though we are like the owners of a dog, and now again, ladies, you're. It's a metaphor. You know, don't be the dog in this analogy, but what I'm saying is it's a metaphor where, if we have a dog and I go, let's go for a walk, I'm going to go for a walk and my dog fucking loves walk, oh, if I grab the leash, he's like we are fucking doing this. Wherever you're going, I'm going. I'm excited for the walk where you pick the direction. We're going to fucking rock it. Man, I'm going to kick ass on this walk. I'm going to mark things, I'm going to have things where I accomplish things. I'm excited as fuck. Wherever you're going, I'm going. Let's do it. That's my dog, right.

Speaker 1: 1:11:15

And we get out in the front yard and then I just stand there my dog still pumped, like we're going for a walk, we're going for a walk, we going which way? I'm good, would you pick the direction? We're going to rock this shit. I got you and I'm like, yeah, and I just stand there. My dog starts winding me up with the fucking leash and starts going back and forth and sits down for a second Like as we ain't walking nowhere. Where the fuck are we going right now? Maybe dig a hole or some shit. And then starts getting a little fucking irritated, starts chewing on the leash and stuff starts getting real annoyed, like I thought we were going for fucking walking. You're not going, you're just standing there, you're not doing shit. Fucking. Go for a walk. And like we're not. And then we go like well, maybe I'll just go sit on the couch. You're like man, I thought this walk was going to be fucking awesome man. We didn't do shit, and so our ladies are sitting there waiting for us to go for a walk.

Speaker 1: 1:12:03

What is your purpose? Are you building something? Are you starting a business? Are you going for your dream? Are you doing something that's worth fucking talking about? Can you go?

Speaker 1: 1:12:10

My man I wake up next to and I'm so fucking proud of my guy and I don't have that hypergamy is not kicking in because I wake up to a guy who I'm like that's the best I can fucking do and he's awesome. I know I got a high value man. Not a high value man because of his height or his finances or his fucking six pack, but because his values are so high, because he's a high values man. It's not about superficial, it's about the man that he is. And that guy stands for shit and he's going for stuff and he fights for things. And that guy he goes for fucking walks and I love it. He takes me to the best places. He takes me to the best. We travel, we adventure, we overcome obstacles and my man doesn't get scared because there's a road to cross.

Speaker 1: 1:12:53

We look both ways and go for it and like where we are in it, and so I look at this analogy of guys who are like, baby, if you're with me, we're going for the best walks. And they're like all right, you got high potential, let's see if you're going to do it. And they commit to a guy for potential and then the guy stands still. The guy stands still. He's like I got her.

Speaker 1: 1:13:17

I wanted to get the dog. I got it. I got the best dog, I got the best dog of all. And then I didn't go for any walks. But I promised the best walks. I didn't go for any walks. I didn't go for my dream. I didn't have a vision, I didn't set goals, I didn't have a relationship thing to make it. So we can go to another level. I stopped paying attention to her needs and her desires because I got her. I didn't know what to do when I caught her. It's like letting the dog chase cars. They don't know what to do if they get it. And so here we are being just, we're not leading. Now for the ladies slow the fuck down. I'm just using the analogy. You calling those bitches Well, some of you are being it right now. So slow down.

Speaker 2: 1:13:58

And that's women to a large degree they are. So many women are in a position where they're so uncomfortable with their own fallibility, just like a lot of men are, and so many women are in a position where they it's like, well, that's not happening. That's not at all what's happening. You're just an asshole.

Speaker 1: 1:14:23

Look at that.

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

Dude, you're sick and it's like, okay, well, look at how reactive you're getting right now If that doesn't speak to everything that's going on inside of you. But here's the problem. A lot of men enter relationships where the first conversation isn't hey, tell me about your childhood, or hey, tell me about your attachment style, or tell me about your love language, or those conversations don't happen. Or hey, what's your primary defense mechanism when you get triggered? These things don't happen. It's not a common conversation. And so the problem is, when you got two people living in the dark and you got one person shining a flashlight, that other person feels really attacked, and so it's like the guys, they got to make it. It's like you got to make it. You got to cushion the blow Like you got to give your wife an opportunity to acknowledge what's going on with her without feeling judged, without feeling embarrassed or ashamed, and with also from a position of understanding, like, okay, this is actually really normal. I try to tell guys all the time the best way to get your wife to acknowledge the issues that she has is, by number one, acknowledging that you've done it and acknowledging it's acknowledging your own fallibility first. Then understanding is if you can normalize the behavior, like, hey, reacting negatively when this happens is actually really normal, then the person's in a position to go like, oh, so it's not about me, it's about this behavior. How many people are in positions in a marriage where they're just talking about each other's character instead of talking about the real problem? It's like, hey, I'm feeling like it's like you're talking about me. It's like no, we're talking about the problem. This is the problem. We're talking about a problem, not you as a person, we're talking about a problem. And if we both as a team can't zoom out from an aerial view like a drone and look down on our issues and on our marriage and see it as it's happening and almost kind of make a joke out of it, right, and almost kind of see it like, okay, we're doing that thing again, it's like, yeah, we are. Hey, it's like that's when you know you're in the sweet spot in a marriage is when those things start to become comedy, because you see them and you understand that the hallmark of a healthy relationship isn't that there's no conflict. It's actually that it's not. If couples fight, it's how they fight, it's that they're not hostile, is that they have a style that is validating.

Speaker 2: 1:16:58

What are the two most common signs of a failing marriage? Two most common behaviors that are guaranteed to be happening in a failing marriage Invalidation and defensiveness. It's no, that's not what happened. This is what happened and it's well. I don't agree with that. It's all of that.

Speaker 2: 1:17:14

It's the invalidation and defensiveness that both parties are in a position where, because the other party won't validate their perspective, they're constantly defending their perspective. So there's the absence of validation and the app. There's just so much defensiveness and walls built up and what you have is two people who are in a posture of like, my position's right and I'm gonna defend this to my grave because this is what it is. And it's like, hey, no, no, you're right because that's your perspective and you know what you're right. But you all seem to understand that I'm right too, because that's my perspective. And when we meet each other in the middle, we start to have those conversations where we get it that conflict is not a liability, it's actually an asset, it's a gateway to a new relationship if I have a strategy to deal with it. But when I have no strategy, I just look at conflict as a negative thing. Or a guy walks on eggshells and he avoids conflict or he doesn't like to call I don't wanna upset my wife. It's like, well, if you don't wanna upset your wife, you're gonna be fucked, because you're gonna be in a position where you're the kind of guy who just basically says, hey, let me emasculate myself in my own marriage because I never wanna upset you. It's like look, as a leader, sometimes you might make decisions that might upset your wife initially, but when she learns that it was the best decision that you needed to make for you and your family, she's gonna thank you for it later. And you can't expect your wife to know how to solve these problems.

Speaker 2: 1:18:33

Right, you gotta be able to pioneer a path. You're in the wilderness, you're in the jungle, brother, and I gave you a machete. I told you to make a path. You're gonna need to start cutting, you're gonna need to start walking, and, yeah, there will be snakes. Yes, there will be wild animals. Yes, you will feel fear, yes, there will be all that. But guess what? We will be alongside of you. We'll be right there with you going. You're doing the right thing and you're going, but it doesn't feel like it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:55

Dude, I'm getting money. The rain's coming down Like there's a lot. This is heavy right here. There's a lot of heavy greenery here. I gotta cut through right. Keep going, my arm's getting tired, switch arms right, my arm's getting tired. Then give the guy next to you the machete for a minute, right, or let's rest. Let's step back, let's look at the path we've cleared so far and let's take a little right. Let's do a little inventory on this.

Speaker 2: 1:19:16

How'd you feel about it? How'd you feel about the work that you did? What came up for you during this time? So I think guys are also in that instant gratification mindset a lot of times. Like dude, you didn't get here overnight, brother, it took you 40 years to get here. Bro, why are you tripping, thinking that you gotta solve this in three days, like, or two weeks, or 30 days? And my wife says I'm not changing. It's like well, probably because you haven't changed that much yet and that's OK.

Speaker 2: 1:19:45

Like, even if you feel and here's reality don't use your wife's interpretation of your change as a gauge. I've also told guys all the time like never, never, use your wife's reaction to what you do as whether or not what you did was the right or wrong thing. Like you might do the right thing and your wife reacts negatively to it. That's not evidence to support that you did the wrong thing. It's like oh, I did that. What happened? Well, my wife got reactive during this thing. Well, what did you do? Well, I had this conversation with her, ok. So what did you do wrong? Well, did I do the right thing? Well, that's not the right question. The question how do you feel about it? Well, I felt good about it. Ok. Then why are you using your wife's negative reaction as a gauge?

Speaker 2: 1:20:26

Now, you have no ability to ever have clarity, because all you do is clouded by self-doubt because someone's reacting negatively. It's like if someone wants to kill somebody and I take away a firearm from them and they get all reactive and it's like is that evidence that I did the wrong thing? It's like no man, you did the right thing. You know what People react negatively to people doing the wrong thing or doing the right thing a lot of times.

Speaker 2: 1:20:48

So it's not about what doing what feels good, it's about doing what you know is right. And you got to determine what you know is right for you and you got to be able to stand in line and stand in the gap and say, hey, I'm going to do this. People might react negatively to it, but that's not evidence to support the fact that I shouldn't have done it or I should have done something different or I did the wrong thing. Look inside yourself and I always ask guys operate as the man that you admire? It's a process that I put the guys through. I always tell them to visualize who is the guy that you admire. If there's a guy that you really were to look up to, a guy that you really thought lived above reproach, how would he handle this?

Speaker 1: 1:21:25

That's a tricky lesson. I mean I got to stop you. You're bombing right now. I mean you just dropped. I got full page on just what you just said.

Speaker 1: 1:21:32

All right, so also I call that chimera training. It's harder to do the one guy thing. I found that very difficult for myself. So what I do is I say build your own chimera, and that's a mythological creature of things that aren't supposed to be put together like Frankenstein, if you will. Frankenstein your own version.

Speaker 1: 1:21:51

So take the traits of the guys you admire, those guys that you admire. There's things that Tim does. I like that. He does this and this, but Tim's not like me, so he's a different warrior type. So I like his traits for that and that, but I also like this guy's compassion, patience and empathy. But I also like this guy's hard work, ethic and his drive and I like this guy's vision and his ability to go through obstacles and put all these pieces together in Frankenstein. All these traits into my style, my warrior type.

Speaker 1: 1:22:20

Some guys are mages, some guys are barbarians, some guys are archers. I'm like you're different warrior types and so if I give a barbarian axe to a mages, it's going to be like this thing sucks for spells Like it's not going to work and I can't put them on the front line. You can't fucking swing it. It's not his warrior type, but a fireball will blast the whole area. So do your style and so build.

Speaker 1: 1:22:41

Your chimera is like it can't be one guy because there's too much, like you said, accountability and fallibility, too much fallibility. But you can put traits together that are authentic, and now you've given yourself a target of authenticity. That is you and the guy that you can be, because these traits are skills and not something you're born with. And now you can find an authentic you that you, frankenstein, that's the version of me that I could be, and now I have something that has meaning, possibility, purpose, and so that's a cool training. But it's tough when it's like just be like Tim, and you're like you do know my history is bullshit right, like don't be like me, because if you have to go through what I have to go through, you're probably fucked.

Speaker 2: 1:23:25

Yeah, I want to get clear. So when I talk to that like, I always tell them you're not looking at a person, you're creating that person. Yeah, you're not looking at. Don't ever look at another man. Look at it is you, but it's you as that avatar that you're creating. It's like the character in that game that's doing the 360. As you go to select them and choose them, you're changing everything about them, right?

Speaker 1: 1:23:49

How would he do that. What traits do you want?

Speaker 2: 1:23:50

Yeah, what traits do you want? And then let's just fasten those on and use that almost as a way to self-govern. So it's like I'm about to do something and then I stop and I say, what would the man that I admire do right now?

Speaker 2: 1:24:03

And it's like that guy, that Chimera, I'm thinking about him and I'm going. He definitely wouldn't react negatively and it's like, ok, we're going to use that then. Ok, what else would he do? He would definitely assert himself calmly and be clear about what he wants right now. Ok, then you need to do that. It's like, but I'm scared, doesn't matter, you need to do it Well.

Speaker 1: 1:24:23

You're leaning on your authenticity. Yes, yes, fear is a very different thing. I got to grab some of the stuff you said, man, because, man, you were going through very quick on some very powerful things and, like I said, some of these ones I want to get back into, because you talked about the way that she reacts as being part of your scale and as soon as you say I'm going to bring some truth to the table, she's like that's not what happened. You're an asshole, you know, like those kind of things when they come up and wife's reaction being the measurement of my progress. I find it interesting when guys do that too and I think I very much align with you on you're using the wrong scale for progress. Right now. She can't see it yet because she hasn't changed her sight yet the stars, she still sees the same old sky. She hasn't done any new training Because you have. She won't see. I learned constellations. She's like I don't see what you're talking about and so she won't see that. And using her as your measurement system is like you standing on the scale to see how smart you are. It's like I'm still you know, whatever 225. And you're like yeah, that hasn't changed. Hasn't changed at all. I'm not any smarter. I'm like wrong scale, dude. That's not how you measure how smart you are. That's the wrong scale, you know. And so we're using the wrong scales on these guys. But it's really interesting to look at that. It's not happening. You're an asshole.

Speaker 1: 1:25:40

Or the triggers that expose truth and the things that I found for people, that's the hardest fight for men and women, is that denial. That's not happening, you're an asshole. For women it's denial of reality and for men it's denial of feelings, and those are the toughest fights. And so when you say, hey, babe, this is the truth, from my point of view, that's not happening. And then a judgment you're an asshole. That whole thing, that complex system that's happening right now, first I deny reality, I'm at the war with what is, and then I create shame or judgment to make it so you feel bad for not seeing what I say you should see, thus making it so you should be different. Because I deny reality. I need you to alter yourself to fit what I believe is right, and that's the system that's being used right now to make it so the emasculation makes sense, not because I can beat you, but because I need you to beat you.

Speaker 2: 1:26:40

That's so dangerous for guys, because what you're doing is you're actually reinforcing if you go along with that, you're reinforcing something that is, a system that is already designed to fail. So you're stepping into something you might temporarily avoid whatever in the heat of the moment argument is happening, but you're stepping into a system that you're actually reinforcing. You're creating more of actually going to make the problem worse because you can validate your wife without agreeing with her Very much. You can say to your wife hey, I totally understand how you would feel that way and you know what. That's totally normal to feel that way. I've actually felt that way at times too, and I could totally see that and you know what. I totally understand that. And if you felt that way in any way regarding what I did, I apologize because I love you and I don't ever want you to feel like that.

Speaker 1: 1:27:28

That's the one part that I stop. I see a lot of guys lean to apology.

Speaker 2: 1:27:32

Apologies don't be appropriate if you look inside yourself and actually believe that you actually need to provide one.

Speaker 1: 1:27:39

Agreed and I would put apologies in extreme situations and people use apologies as a blanket and this goes into the Marshall Rosenberg like NVC stuff where he's like there's Jackal speak, it's shame talk. Say you're sorry, Tim, no, no, no.

Speaker 2: 1:27:53

Say you're sorry, like you mean yeah, we're not doing that. You know what?

Speaker 1: 1:27:56

I mean, this is the shame. You should feel that, say you're sorry, and actually Andrew and I, we don't apologize often Because we need to acknowledge and then say what it is that I want to do better, and then do we have an agreement on being better. But I don't need to feel sorry for learning, no.

Speaker 2: 1:28:13

And the apology should really be based on. It's like you should only be saying I'm sorry when you feel like convicted by what you did and you're not OK with how you acted because it's not an alignment with your core values, and so your like the apology is a declaration about the fact that I'm not living in alignment with the man that I want to be. So it's like, hey, I apologize. It's not about what I believe you want or that like you.

Speaker 1: 1:28:42

Even the way you just said that sounded so much better than the apology, Like that's where I'm at with this is. We're like I don't feel like I'm in alignment with me, and so here's what I'm going to start doing differently from now on.

Speaker 2: 1:28:53

Are you much better. You can say better than saying sorry. You can apologize and say sorry without actually saying those words.

Speaker 1: 1:28:58

You're damn right, you can. You're damn right, and that's why what you just said to me sounded so much better than I'm sorry. It's like I'm not in alignment with myself and I, to be better, will do it this way next time. Are you OK with the level of growth that I'm trying to go for?

Speaker 2: 1:29:14

So much better For you and I to be in agreement.

Speaker 1: 1:29:16

I don't have to feel shame for, like the mistakes, I have to learn from them, and if there's guilt and shame involved, this means I do not have training. I'm looking at the sky, wrong, right, I don't have training. You look at it as you are bad, not how do I improve? And so that's where you said the defensiveness and invalidation. The answer to defensiveness is listen to under, or the invalidation is listen to understand the defensiveness, as it's OK to disagree. You're correct, and people aren't using their tools or their weapons in these battles.

Speaker 2: 1:29:48

Yeah, it's this. It's also learning. Something I call ethical manipulation Is you've got to know that? You've got to learn how to? I use like a lot of Socratic questioning when I'm working with people.

Speaker 1: 1:30:00

Very hard to do. By the way. I fucked that up for years before I got good at it.

Speaker 2: 1:30:05

Yeah, socratic questions are really powerful, like it's pointed questions that are not rhetorical sometimes, but they're questions that are designed to. It's like if you know something's going on, you ask a question where the answer to that question is their recognition and acknowledgment of what it is. So, instead of just making a statement, you're asking a question where the answer to that question actually is a statement that you wanted to make.

Speaker 1: 1:30:29

Right, and it's very powerful and asking it in a way that I'm not trying to control the conversation. I'm asking as though I know nothing.

Speaker 2: 1:30:38

Right, so please explain, even though I do so. It's like you're not using dark psychology. You're learning how to use language and tools to create conversations that invoke introspection for both parties, correct?

Speaker 1: 1:30:52

And the goal is not to shame. This is where people have seen I've seen the Socratic method used pretty aggressively by three-year-olds, where they could just be like why, why, yeah, why, that's the worst, and they will kick your ass At some point. You're like I don't fucking know.

Speaker 2: 1:31:08

And that comes across really inauthentic when guys do that, when it's like when they get into that, because that to me is like it's almost borderline, people pleasing behavior, where it's like, well, why do you feel that way, honey? It's like, ok, well, tell me more about that, why. And it's like, bro, you're just ruining it now. Now you're not understanding. Like no, brother, like stop pretending, like you're not clear. That's the one thing that really gets me about a lot of guys is you're in this position where you're getting into rabbit hole arguments with your wife that you know is a rabbit hole, but you're engaging yourself in that circular argument and the problem is, is you're not speaking and articulating yourself with clarity to show that we know what we're talking about? If you're standing on the hill and you're pointing and you're saying it stars, it stars, it stars, and I'm telling you hey, look, with all due respect, you're pointing at Sagittarius right now and I'm telling you that these three stars are aligned. It's OK that you don't understand that and I don't need you to agree with me, but I'm telling you with clarity that that's what this is. It's like guys, they don't have the ability to stand in their own confidence and stand in their own truth and to assert themselves, not from a place of dominance, but actual, true confidence in what I'm saying and what I believe and what I know to be true. And so what they do is they get in this mode of placating their wife. Let me tell my wife what I think she wants me to say and what I think she wants to hear. And it's like, bro, you're digging yourself a hole, because what happens is she's never going to be not going to respect you, she's not going to respect that, and there's going to be a position where you just go along with it and now you're just, you're not you're. The beautiful thing is two people who can look at things in two different ways, and we can see that. The law of polarity. You see it one way, I see it another, and that's there's beauty in that, there's beauty in that, and you know what I like. That about you. That's what made us, that's what made me fall in love with you to begin with, that's what made me want to be in a relationship to begin with, is that you didn't look at the world. I don't need you to look at the world the same way that I do, because if I want to impose my view of the way that everything is in my life onto you. What is that really about? More or less, it's about me never wanting to feel challenged, me never wanting to feel like I have to look inside myself, like I'm ever wrong or a fallible human being who makes mistakes.

Speaker 2: 1:33:23

And so many guys are in a position where they are that guy, where you have three types of guys Right, and these three types of guys usually have problems. You have you have aggressors right, guys who usually are impulsive, angry outbursts. They usually use the power through. Usually a lot of times they have a passive wife. The wife is very soft spoken, she's very more of a gentle type, she's not very assertive at all, she's more like retracts and recoils inside arguments and he tends to be more domineering and more aggressive. Borderline, you know, has some narcissistic tendencies as well, just borderline, controlling and overtly just aggressive. Then you have and guys can be all three of these, but usually they're like we talked about earlier, they're usually more commonly one.

Speaker 2: 1:34:11

Then you have the avoider right. Who's a guy who's avoided? He's more he is, avoids conversations, he's more dissociative, he disengages, he unplugged, he disconnects, he neglects himself and others. He's very just checked out from reality and he's not present and he's an avoider. He avoids mostly everything in his life, potentially even has self-destructive behaviors or vices to help him do that.

Speaker 2: 1:34:41

And then you have guys who are pleasers right? You have guys who are. You have a guy who is bends over backwards, placates his wife. He's a yes man, doesn't have boundaries, doesn't know how to say no, right? The typical pleaser type where he walks on eggshells, wants to avoid conflict, wants to please his wife and believes that pleasing his wife is the gateway to a better relationship, right? So with those three types of guys, what might work for one guy won't work for another, right? So you try to tell like. You try to tell like.

Speaker 2: 1:35:14

For some of these guys who are highly aggressive, like, what do they need to develop? They need to develop more empathy, the ability to stop, to actively listen, to reflect, to look inside themselves, to acknowledge their own fallibility, that they fight arguments and their desire to always be right. Right To win the argument is actually a strategy of losing, because they're losing everything in the process. Right? You don't need to win every argument. This is about understanding you can create win-win situations. It's about creating win-win where both parties walk away feeling seen, heard and connected.

Speaker 2: 1:35:43

And you have the avoider right. What does he need to do? He needs to confront situations. He needs to actually learn how to approach situations and be bold and courageous in his pursuit of handling things as they show up in his life. Right, he needs to not be so dissociative and disengaged.

Speaker 2: 1:35:58

And then you have, right, that pleaser type. What does he need? To develop More confidence, his ability to look inside himself and have know his truth, right. His ability to not overly identify with everything his wife is going through. His ability to stop his codependency, stop his behaviors that keep him right, prevent him from drawing the line of demarcation between where he ends and where his wife begins. Right, but with all three of those guys there's three different strategies, three different archetypes, three different pathways, three different.

Speaker 2: 1:36:27

So it's for every guy they're in a different situation, right, and a lot of guys are not. Some guys are in a roommate situation. Some guys are in a totally abusive situation. Some guys are in a situation where they literally are the primary problem. Some guys are in a situation where their wife is more of a problem than they are, right, but regardless, it doesn't matter, because they're the problem because they're not doing anything to change the fact that there is a problem.

Speaker 2: 1:36:55

So guys ask me you know, why don't you talk about women's issues? Number one I'm not a woman. And number two is if you're not gonna stay in the, you have two choices go or stay. If you're gonna stay, then how is there any other option other than taking extreme accountability and ownership for why your marriage is the way it is? How is there any other option? If you're gonna be a victim about this and you're gonna stay stuck, you're never gonna solve it.

Speaker 2: 1:37:15

So either we're gonna get into action, you're gonna take ownership for why this is the way it is, and I'm not at all saying that these things aren't happening with your wife, but the reality is is you need to lead and you need to become clear, because if both it's like standing in a lake and you're in knee-deep water and both of you guys are kicking your feet and there's a lot of mud and you're looking down and going stop, and then she's going no, you stop. And you're going no, you stop. When you stop moving your feet, it's gonna become very clear about who's doing what underneath the surface of that water, if that water is still murky. Right, you're gonna know. Well, my feet I haven't moved my feet and the water is still murky, still muddy water. So guys have to be in a position. You got to know who you are, you got to know where you're operating from, you got to know what your problems are. So the cornerstone to your path really is that awareness.

Speaker 1: 1:38:03

Yeah, you're right, you want to hear a fun game, the, the accountability awareness like accountability is later in the program because it's a brutal topic, but awareness is first topic. Do you went into aggressor, avoider and pleasers? Do you want to see a really cool way this works in another direction? Yeah, so part of my next book is the association I haven't seen psychology do between our grieving system, our fight, flight, freeze and Fawn system, mixed in with the enemies, within which is fear, excuses, distractions and doubt, and they're all connected in a way that I haven't seen people put together. And so that's part of what this next book is about, and Aggressors are gonna be part of the. If you're looking at the grieving system, that's anger, I'm angry, I will lead by attack. That's gonna be the fight system and that's gonna be a dominance.

Speaker 1: 1:38:52

Old with with what is false confidence. He's loud and aggressive. He must know what he wants and nobody fucks with him because he's too tough when really he's just terrified of his own fucking shadow or his own emotions and he can't be honest, and so he has to keep everybody separated from him because the truth is gonna be too much. And so fuck that and so fuck you and fuck off and sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, because if you get close to me out you're gonna see I'm really just a dude who didn't get enough hugs Again.

Speaker 1: 1:39:22

I don't want you to know that so that's your fight system and your grief system is anger. If you go into the avoider, that's actually two different parts. The avoider is flight and freeze. Flight is gonna be hide, suppress or retreat. That's an action, that's a, that's a direction. I'm not, I'm going somewhere with us, I'm getting away from this Now. Freeze is surrender, no fight, I just froze, I'm done, I stopped, I did no fight, left, I give up. And the avoider may look like both, but it's actually two different systems. One is denial, which is hide, suppress and retreat. That's denial. And depression or sadness is freeze. I give up, I surrender, I have no, I have no will to fight anymore and I'm. It's a sadness thing is, I'm too sad to even continue. And so that's two different systems put together in your grieving cycle.

Speaker 1: 1:40:12

The pleasers are the confusing ones for people. That's connected to bargaining and that's the bargaining system in your grieving cycle. I call those the negotiators. What do I have to do, what do I have to sacrifice for you to be okay? And this is where, if you looked at each of these systems, fight in flight or hit the gas, freezes hit the break, but people pleasers, negotiators, is hit the gas and the break at the same time and that's why it's the confusing one, because it looks like it's supposed to be good because I'm trying to help. I want to go towards Tim because he's angry and I'm gonna I'm gonna be between Tim and the kids so they don't get hurt.

Speaker 1: 1:40:51

I'll take it so that Tim's okay and it looks like I'm the good guy, I'm the hero, right when really I'm compromising my integrity. I'm compromising my authenticity to try to make the damage mitigation lower for others, which I just keep taking the hits. And these people are living such an Inauthentic life because they are no longer themselves and they're no longer loved. And the people who want to do that type of Damage to them are generally also showing the murky water they create. The people pleasers usually end up with the narcissists and those are the ones who will just take and take and take and take and take Until there's nothing left and go either. Fuck, did I ever love you in the first place? And that's where these they'll.

Speaker 1: 1:41:35

They'll usually attract people who are very Unhealthy and needy because they need to be needed by someone who has a lot of needs. It's a very unhealthy codependency system with people pleasers, but the fawning system gets unnoticed often and it's probably one of the more dangerous ones. Now, I think almost everybody starts with avoidance. That's the suppression everybody starts with, like I don't want to fucking deal with this.

Speaker 2: 1:42:04

Yeah, the Nile is the first stage of that grieving process.

Speaker 1: 1:42:07

Oh, and it's the nastiest one too, because it looks like protection. The other ones set off alarms. But denial and distractions they don't set off alarms, they come into pleasure and protection and that's. You know where the devil works in that area. That's addiction, is denial plus distraction. Yes, that's where addiction comes from and that's where, like when you start doing deep work, it's not your identity, it's your denials. Let's get into the hurt. But these people pleasers, or the after the avoidance part, the people pleasers get off radar because the fight and the flight or the Fight and freeze are so loud. You know, I broke down crying and you just started fucking, being a bitch. You're like, yeah, you hit him with that. That dude's crying right now. He's not okay. Yeah, you know, fucking bitch right now. Fuck, that poor dude's heart is broken. That's how you treat that. That's you. You revealed you to yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:42:57

Yeah 100%, yep. And then you see the angry guy. Remember I did a video it blew up when I was on the to be better podcast where they're asking like guys have to go to anger because when we go to sadness we're judged and rejected and so we have to go to anger for a false sense of confidence. Yeah, looks like a badass, don't fuck with him, sublimation. But anger is just gonna be the all the sadness pushed into that. So anger is how men cry. Yeah, that's how we cry as we get angry because we can't cry, so we cry through anger.

Speaker 2: 1:43:30

Anger and plus anger is is typically something that's socially acceptable and validated as men. It's something that it feeds into the facade and anger. The sad part about anger is anger, we all know is secondary. It can only be angry if you're truly hurt or afraid. Underneath the anger there's always something else, no matter how much of a split second that occurs in you. Anger, but it's sometimes also anger is necessary.

Speaker 2: 1:43:54

Healthy anger, healthy use of anger, right, it's like some of these guys need to get upset, they need to get pissed off, they need to feel what it's like. Okay, yeah, it's. It's the comfort, it's it's removing the denial and the acknowledgement of like, this is where I'm actually at and you know what fuck that. Like, I'm not gonna stay here. I want to change, I want to grow. I don't want to be here. Thank you for this. Like, yeah, it's like when you tell a guy like hey, they're going on and on about a story and you're like hey, man, why do you keep going in circles about this? Can I ask you something? Like, or can I tell you something? It's totally normal, man, and you know what. Like, you're right, mm-hmm, and you don't need to fight that. Like you don't need to give me five million excuses as to why it's wrong and and why this and why this is no brother, hey, injustices occur and yeah well, what do you?

Speaker 2: 1:44:43

what do you? What do you want to do from here? How do you want to go? How do you want to move forward? Because, really, up to you, a lot of guys have never heard that before. They're in a position of they Back to the shame, it's back to the shame again, it's back to the shame and the guilt, right and what I should have done, what I could have done. So they're living in a deficit. It's like they're not living in there. They're focused on who they were and what they've done, not where they're going and who they're becoming. And it's like they're stuck in this trap of not realizing like, hey, man, you are not obligated To be the person that you were yesterday, you know well, they didn't get any new star training though yet, and so they were trained by their parents, who didn't know.

Speaker 1: 1:45:26

That's just the sky. Shut the fuck up.

Speaker 1: 1:45:29

Yeah but your Aristotle is showing, and so this is where Aristotle also said the same thing. They say anger is bad, and almost every religion except Aristotle says no, it's not anger. Anger notices injustice and gives you the direction to do what is right when other people are trying to manipulate or do what is wrong. Aristotle says maybe it's not all bad, maybe it is a maybe. We're not mistakes to have anger, maybe it's not, maybe there's a purpose for it, and you're right. And this is where, like you're correctly said at least one of the categories there's something unfair or unjust happening right now and fuck that. Or Something was taken from you or lost. We don't like that.

Speaker 1: 1:46:11

Or especially in relationships and this is where people really struggle is there's an unmet need, and Again that's Rosenberg is, as everybody's outburst is some sort of a tragic expression of an unmet need. There's something that I needed but I didn't know how to say. I just need you to fucking listen, so I need to feel heard. Yeah, you know, or I, you know. Validate me, please notice my existence. I need to know that I'm important or valued. But people don't have the self-awareness to be able to articulate their needs, and so they're just angry and they expect you to know without ever saying. And I don't know, but I expect you to figure it out, which is an impossible task like rocket science, right, it's like it's people trying to figure out something.

Speaker 2: 1:46:49

It's like that, and that's. That's what I'm saying. Is you put guys placing these expectations on their wives, or wives placing these Expectations on their husbands to decipher a code that he hasn't even? He didn't even read the sky, it isn't even know the star system yet. So it's a reminder.

Speaker 1: 1:47:03

Yeah, it's like I got one for you. You I'll tell you what, tim. You be the greatest bartender in the world. You know every drink. You are a master of masters. You have taught the greats, greatest of the greats, and this is the relationship dynamic people have. I come to your bar and, man, you got it stocked your shits together. You are the man and I heard nothing but good things, a thousand star review. You're the best. Right now I go, tim, mmm, I heard you're the best of the best. No one better. I want Something amazing. Give me the best drink you can think of. I can't wait to have the best of the best drink You're like I got you.

Speaker 1: 1:47:41

Man, what drink are you gonna make? What's the drink that you're like I'm gonna blow your fucking mind, right? I don't know if you really know that or not, but like, do you have a drink in mind? No, okay, good. So let's just say you like I got this elaborate drink, something. It's got like you have to set a fire and it fucking has like umbrellas and shit. It's got all kinds of stuff. You put the coolest drink, you can make your crunch and shit and get a fucking gavel Involved. There's all kinds of magic happening, right? You fucking, there's a puff of smoke and shit, and then you give them a drink. You're like this is the greatest drink of all time and I'm like give it to me. And I'm like Not my fucking drink. Oh, my god, I, what the fuck? No, no, that's not my drink.

Speaker 1: 1:48:20

Tim, give me a good drink, man. I want, I want the best drink. You're like oh, you don't like that? All right, well, let me try this drink. And so let's give you something simple jack of coke. Your ass, like I hate jack, not my thing. I thought you said you were good at this. No, give me the best drink. All right, man, and then I'll make you some. Maybe a long island or a blue motorcycle, I'll make you something. I'm like here you go. This is a very elaborate kind of cool drink, common but good. And they're like oh, I'm too strong, oh, I don't like it, oh.

Speaker 1: 1:48:49

And you start realizing, no matter how fucking good you are, it has nothing to do with what that person's needs are. And you're trying to guess of how many millions of drinks there are. I don't know if you want orange juice or milk or a fucking glass of water with a lemon. I don't know if you want an elaborate martini or if you want. I don't know what you want and you're not giving me anything here on the menu. You're just saying give me something good. But good is subjective, and so I'm giving you the best drink at it's the highest rate of drink ever made. And you don't like that flavor, though you hate pineapples or some shit. I'm like, well, fuck me, I don't know, it's your taste buds, and so how are you going to be the greatest bartender if I never ordered anything?

Speaker 1: 1:49:30

And that's why people's relationships are goofed up. They're like. You should just know like well, you never ordered shit. I can make any drink. Yeah but you never ordered what you want. I'll fucking make it.

Speaker 2: 1:49:41

Just ask what you want and what is good to you. And if you really started to decipher that, wouldn't you learn that actually you are? You're placing an obligation, a demand and the command on another human being Actually to solve something that you should be solving yourself. You Right, the problem is you didn't come into the bar knowing what you wanted, and even if I wasn't clear about how to make that drink, you could give me a rough explanation of how it would be created. You could describe it, but you had no language, you had no ability to do that. So You're actually asking for something from me that you should be providing yourself and you're making it an obligation of mine right To adhere to the system, and you're getting upset with me when really the frustration is coming from the fact that you actually don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:50:32

Well, I shouldn't have to, and if you can't figure it out, time, I'm gonna go to a better bartender.

Speaker 2: 1:50:37

You're not that good, see, and that's the point guys gotta get in the relationship with the real, as then go.

Speaker 1: 1:50:42

Well, that's what girls are doing right now. Yeah, you're right, we like I'm still fucking badass bartender, just cuz you didn't order some.

Speaker 2: 1:50:49

Yes, and that's the confidence, that's the on me yes, and don't think I'm not gonna continue to learn more drinks in this process, but if this is not enough for you, then I refuse to settle for breadcrumbs inside this relationship. Than I am not desperate. I am not in a position where I'm willing to constantly be served and be operating from a position of inferiority when I'm who you're exalting yourself over me in this marriage. I'm done.

Speaker 2: 1:51:13

Based on judgment, and here's the problem mean behavior yeah, I see a lot of guys, a lot of guys and their Christians, and they feel spiritually obligated To remain in a relationship. It's like, well, you know, the Bible says, you know Nussar's infidelity, I can't leave this relationship. And they feel as though there's some type of spiritual obligation for them to stand, something that is clearly, clearly abusive, clearly abusive. But they remain in it because the pastor said I need to work on it, or, and these guys have been trying for years and years, and years, and years, and years, and years, and years and years and I say this all the time to these guys. It's like, hey, have you ever put that on the table as a conversation, not as threat, not to course anybody, but just to say hey, like, if this doesn't improve, like I genuinely consider moving on and I'm serious about that, I can genuinely consider moving on in my life and I just want to let you know that, yeah, that's a heavy sentence to.

Speaker 1: 1:52:13

It's funny when this thing gets weaponized yeah, funny. It's funny when this is a weapon and I, for those of us who have a connection to God, I wonder what God makes it so that you need to live in hell and that's how you serve me. It's like, wait a second. He didn't so. He didn't create you for misery, he didn't do. I don't know which God you're talking about. Maybe Old Testament, I guess I knew Testament doesn't do that I don't know you're talking about. Are you a Christian? Because you should read Christ. You know he doesn't say these things the way that you're talking about it and a lot of times the interpretations get goofed up to from church hurt.

Speaker 1: 1:52:46

I got a question for that guy all these abuses that are happening, especially emotionally and sometimes physically. It's not infidelity. But which vows matter? Which vows are the important ones? Which ones can we throw in the garbage? Thank you. Which? Which vows can we break? I just want to make sure which ones don't matter. You like?

Speaker 1: 1:53:06

Well, she stopped honoring me, respecting me. She's not with me in sickness, especially not in health. She doesn't love me, she's not. We're not intimate. We don't have anything together. There's no effort to grow? We're not. She's not even fucking try. She's the meanest person in my life. I'm like, well, which vows matter, because we can break every single vow. Except I just didn't have intimacy with another person, and that's OK. I can be as abusive as I want, it's not sex with another person. I'm like I don't know if that is what the idea for this commitment is supposed to be. And so when people weaponize the Bible and use God as the excuse for abuse, that's not the God that I follow. He's not. You have to be here to get fucked up by this lady. That seems more like somebody trying to manipulate God's reason or purpose.

Speaker 2: 1:53:55

For you To leave, that sounds like yeah, that sounds like a byproduct of the abuse itself, more than an actual connection and clear interpretation of what God is trying to do in their life. It's like, hey brothers, it's like when guys say to me like I'm just so afraid or like I'm just scared, it's like step back. I want you to realize that it's not about this situation. This fear, all of this whole cycle of fear and guilt that you're in, is a part of the abuse. It's a part, it's a byproduct of abuse. It's like you're not just feeling fear and guilt because of this circumstance today. It's like, no bro, this is a side, this is part of the pattern that you're in, this is the conditioning, this is how powerful it is. And this whole cycle is fed by your fear and your guilt.

Speaker 2: 1:54:41

Is that contemptuous cycle. You fear the contempt from your wife, and so then you start to spiral down in the anxiety spiral. Right, when you start to enter that anxiety spiral, right. Then what happens? You walk on eggshells, right, or you try to placate your wife. And then what happens? Inevitably, right, there's some type of disdain or some type of contemptuous trigger. Right, the triggers the contempt. And then what? When you don't act, we ask and you don't conform to those rules that have been established for you. Right, then what ends up happening? Well, your wife sees that as confirmation that she needs to go back to it. Right, that you're not conforming, so you're not conforming to the system. So you know what I need to go back to it? Guess what?

Speaker 1: 1:55:21

she sees your conforming to it as confirmation as well, that it validates the system as well yes, and you are not worthy of following, you are not worthy of listening to, you are not worried, you're not worthy. And it validates those guys inworthiness. And so they live in doubt and shame and depression, and the depression, anxiety stacks. It becomes a very vicious cycle. Simply because they actually didn't lean in on faith. They leaned in on just punishment. Yes, they leaned in on. You are. You deserve to be treated this way because and it's like what is it? Which God and Christ are you talking about? Like which ones? I don't know which ones you're talking about. It's like damn man, damn, that's you. That's where you're at. It's scary, man. It's scary to watch the patterns to. It's scary to watch the patterns. And these guys, especially faith side, you're like man. I don't know which God you're talking about, but living in judgment and living in these false prophet things where people say, like you have to do this, you have to do that because the Bible said so.

Speaker 1: 1:56:22

Usually read Christ, because if you're going off of what the church says, I don't think you know who Jesus was. Or, yes, you are. Wherever you go with it, I don't think you know the guy, because if you read him, I'm pretty sure he pissed off everybody at the church, like I'm pretty confident Sundays, you know, those are for man, not, you know, sabbath is, we are for the Sabbath. He pissed off everybody who killed him. It was the church. The church said kill that guy, let my rabbits go. That guy needs to be killed and torture him brutally to do it. To why he pissed off the church.

Speaker 1: 1:56:57

And if you're not defiant or challenging everything and not in your warrior type to say I have to challenge this and I can do it in a healthy way. But if you're telling me I deserve to be abused because you guys have a book, I don't agree and I don't believe my. My Jesus would say stay in here and let her just to grade you into the fucking ground and never stand up for yourself, never live in your purpose, never feel confident, never feel worthy. Stay isolated and just give every resource you have, just give all of it until there's nothing left, and then she can tell you how you're worthless. For that too, you should do that. That's Jesus, that's what he says to do, right? I'm like which fucking Jesus are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 1:57:44

yeah, give all of yourself until you have nothing left. And then, when you're all gone, when nothing's left, they say to you it's still not enough, and then you realize that you've given all of yourself and you don't even know where to go from here.

Speaker 1: 1:57:58

You've seen Saudi accounts, a big proprietor of these things. She's psychologist, talks about the narcissism that's being created by women today and social media and how these behaviors are becoming glorified and more common, and she's even against Western marriages, saying like it seems like there's nothing in it for the men, where we end up becoming the reward system for them being abusive and aggressive towards leaving. And you know swiping right. So I'm going to marry you as a Like a security system for my next relationship where I get paid alimony or I get paid something. You're going to pay me for me doing anything I want. I can leave for any. She can be cheating on you the whole time. She can do anything she wants and she gets half still. And what's in it for guys? We just get destroyed. Yeah, I'm not red pill guy, but I see the the minute and these people saying we should at least look at the way the contract is set up here. This doesn't look like it's set up for an equality thing.

Speaker 2: 1:58:55

It looks like a good one to be destroyed. Thank god for women who are doing the work and who are conscious and aware. The wife that's conscious, that is aware, that is you know, understands my needs and is is For the women out there that are that hold true to good core values and good morals and understand that the what it is to embrace the femininity of that role inside of marriage is everything yeah and those ladies are starting to step up to because they're realizing the pendulum is going far.

Speaker 1: 1:59:29

These are our daughters, are daughters who are out there in the influence that's being put on our girls and the world that's going to be left for our sons. It's not healthy no you know it's very unhealthy. So the largest advocates right now are becoming women. Women are like no, no, no, no, ladies, stop.

Speaker 1: 1:59:45

I love summers is a price. There's a price to this, you know, and you know you see the guys going like you want the high values man. You want the good man, the noble, kind, compassionate, has all his shit together man. You want that man, and yet you give all your value out to everyone for fucking the biggest on bags on earth? Crazy to me.

Speaker 2: 2:00:07

I saw a video was a guy. He was interviewing two people you might have saw this and he asked he asked the couple. He said he asked the guy's girlfriend. He said, hey, would you be upset if he liked the girls picture on social media who's wearing a bikini or something like that? And she said well, yeah. And then he asked her. He said, but you're okay posting pictures of yourself in a bikini for other people to like all day. How do you think he should feel about that? And then she was like well, and then he, the guy, was like whoa. The guy was like whoa, I didn't even think about that and it's like man, these are things to consider, you know, and and in my mind, at the end of the day, it comes back down to that man, because you can't, people aren't problems to be solved, right?

Speaker 2: 2:00:57

You can't control people, right? The reality is is, at the end of the day, is like you gotta know what you want and you gotta create standards in your life and you gotta be willing to say this is what I want. I'm clear about what it is, open minded and flexible to learn, but I wanna know my truth because I'm lost and I don't have clarity. I'm looking at the sky. I can't see what's going on. I need to get right with me first and then work to a place where, through this process, I can begin to grow and evolve to where you know what, if the marriage ends, at least I come out a better man and I win regardless. And you know what? If I save the marriage?

Speaker 1: 2:01:32

okay, I save the marriage, but there is no other path other than me becoming a warrior that's the only way for guys and this is where you pointed out a very large thing my 15 or she's 16 now, but she was 15 at the time and I was talking with her and I mentioned those kind of things. And even with herself, when she has her own thing, she does the same thing. Girls just do this. Remember the denial of reality is their hardest curse. It's the toughest one. And I found out that women gaslight their introspection. They don't, they don't call it what it is, they don't do that. And so when she sees him liking what she does from someone else, he is judged as bad. But if other guys do what he would be bad for, she is good. And I'm like how are we measuring this? Because you hate the behavior unless you're the receiver right and like you don't, you judge everyone else is horrible for what you're doing. And so my 15 year old said we're really good at everybody else's truth and very bad at our own.

Speaker 2: 2:02:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:02:32

Power said you're very, very wise on this, now apply it, because you're fucking your own shit up, so get your shit together. But no, she's. She works with me on that stuff and she's working through some tough things. And it's tough for the kids on these ones because you're seeing the infrastructure that's set up for that gaslighting. Also, it's really difficult for the values of women, the femininity, because you're watching people give it away for free for so many years.

Speaker 1: 2:02:56

One of the Tough for stats that are coming out, as you see, girls in their early 20s. The average now is where their body count is around their age and that's in their early 20s and that's if that's. You know that's average, it's not high, that's average and you're like well, these numbers are becoming interesting because these girls are sleeping with tons of guys, tons of guys, for free, and then, once they start hitting their 30s or wherever and they start to decline, they expect a guy like us to then pay a premium 300 K plus a year pay a premium For her when she's given it away, hundreds and hundreds of guys and within a 10 to 12 year period.

Speaker 1: 2:03:38

Insanity even faster, and this is where women are finding themselves like there I'm just too much to handle, or they just can't get it. You know, like you're gaslighting the truth right now. You're not being honest with you. You have lowered your value by doing free samples to everybody, and then you want somebody to buy the farm.

Speaker 2: 2:03:55

And let me guess all those guys are narcissists too, right?

Speaker 1: 2:03:58

Of course they have to be judged, because it can't be me. It has to be right.

Speaker 2: 2:04:02

So they're all narcissists. But the irony is, is what? Who is a narcissist? And you can't describe it. So all you can do is throw out buzzwords and terminology as a way to absolve yourself of whatever guilt that you feel inside. So, of course, every man that you're with is a narcissist. But the irony is but you said you loved him and you were, he was the best thing that you ever met. When you met. Well, he loved, bombed me. Ok, I'm sure he did, sure he did. Yeah, other than and we'll talk to him about that story and what is you know, come to find out the guy says it was totally a dude, she was cheating on me with another guy. Bro, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1: 2:04:34

That was. She was sleeping with four guys at once.

Speaker 2: 2:04:36

Yeah, she was, I was just supply, and then he go, and then you talk to him and he realizes that and he goes, and then you hear the story. It's like, yeah, and then what does society do? Society tells it, hey, man, it's like it's back on you. So my that's why I want to be clear about my messaging is always like a lot of I don't want, ever want, anyone to misconstrue my message. My message is to a very specific person with a very specific problem, so it's not ubiquitous in the sense of men in general. I'm speaking to a very specific type of guy who is the primary problem, and I try to tell those guys like look like there only is one pathway out, and the pathway out is for you to realize that You're stuck. You're stuck in a system that is a self fulfilling prophecy that you feed into and and the mental health system in America has failed you because it's relied on you reaching out to it.

Speaker 2: 2:05:30

But here we are, guys like Rick and I with our hand out saying, hey, we're reaching out to you, right? So if you're a guy that's listening, like you're listening to two guys who were in the same position that you were in, like we're reaching out to you. It's part of what this podcast is about. It's part of what our journey is about. It's part of what our mission, vision and values are about. It's part of our, our purposes about is we're reaching out to you. That's what this podcast is about.

Speaker 2: 2:05:52

That's what these messages are about is to let you know, like, hey, man, you're not alone and we have our hand out to you, like we are putting our hand out through the call, through the podcast, through the books, right through, through whatever conferences and whatever other free resources and programs that we offer and provide you. To let you know, man, that there is a place for you, right? And it's about you finding that recipe that works for you, because, no matter who you are, you got to believe in what you're doing, and a lot of times it's not your fault that things haven't worked for you, but it is your responsibility because you just haven't found a system that worked, and that's OK. It doesn't mean that, because psychiatry or therapy failed you, that something's wrong with you. You know nothing's wrong with you, man, that you're just you haven't found what works, and that's OK. It doesn't mean anything. It just means you haven't found a system that worked for you.

Speaker 1: 2:06:43

You just keep searching. Yeah, training is only trained or untrained. Train You're the practitioner or not? Right, that's right? Well said, man. That's awesome. That's a good spot to leave it here, man. This has been such an honor to hang with you. This is awesome. Tim, where can we send our guys who, just man, I resonate with Tim, that's my dude. Where can we send them if they're like I want to book a call? How can I do that?

Speaker 2: 2:07:05

Yeah, you can connect with me at any time. You can reach me on all my platforms. So obviously, instagram beyond underscore, underscore driven. You can reach me on Tiktok beyond dot driven, facebook beyond driven. And then obviously, you can always go to our website. We have a website Go dot beyond dash driven dot com.

Speaker 1: 2:07:29

And we're going to have all your links. I'm going to make sure all the links are in this thing, so click on the damn links, book a call with Tim and his guys and let's see if we can get like between the two of us. If we're not matching for you, well, you're probably going to have to be in a very different kind of group. Then we'll be, we build warriors.

Speaker 2: 2:07:46

Yeah, it's been an honor brother. I just want to say thank you. This has been a we've been in flow state for like two hours. This has been awesome and it's it's.

Speaker 1: 2:07:53

it's fun when guys like us can just take the wheels off. We don't have to worry about like, oh man, am I going to go too far or too fast?

Speaker 2: 2:07:59

It's like just go and I just want to honor you, man, for for all the work that you're doing, brother, and just all the value that you're putting out there for these guys, because they need it, man, and I just want to honor you for every, all the work that you're doing and just how you're serving these guys, man, and it's been a privilege to be here and connect with you out a great time. So, thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:08:17

Yeah, we'll do more, man, this is good. Yeah, thanks a lot, brother.