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The Battlefield Of The Mind
Introducing Rick Yee, author of the groundbreaking book "Everything is a Choice" - where he teaches that even the most complex decisions can be broken down into simple choices.Rick's unique approach is all about training your brain and raising your awareness. Creating the truly authentic, high-value person you were always meant to be. He's helped countless individuals make life-changing decisions and take control of their lives. Don't settle for less than you deserve, start making choices that empower you with Rick Yee's guidance! This is the way, the warrior's way!
The Battlefield Of The Mind
85. Life Or Death Choices with Men's Coach Nathaniel Dunn
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Have you ever wondered about the unexpressed world of men's emotional landscape? Ever pondered why society sets such unrealistic expectations for both genders? Join us as we unpack these intriguing questions with our special guest, Nathaniel Dunn, a Changemaker infusing purpose into businesses and dedicated to fostering personal growth.
Nathaniel offers an insightful exploration into the world of men's groups, shedding light on these safe havens where men feel comfortable expressing their emotions without fear of judgment. He also takes us on a deep dive into the complexities of gender dynamics and societal expectations, offering an enlightening perspective based on his own experiences and research. We further delve into the damaging effects of judgment on individuals and society, as well as the tragically high suicide rates among men, particularly in the UK. With Nathaniel, we explore how isolation and lack of support often push individuals to consider suicide, emphasizing the urgent need for supportive communities and a sense of belonging.
In our conversation, we also delve into the realm of relationships, discussing the importance of self-assessment and open communication. Nathaniel shares his insights on the need for strong, empathetic leaders and how courageously embracing vulnerability can lead to transformative changes. Don't miss out on this eye-opening journey where we discuss these thought-provoking topics and more with Nathaniel Dunn, revealing the power of connection and the courage it takes to be true to oneself.
Connect with Nathaniel Dunn HERE!
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The Power of Men's Groups
Speaker 1What's up , warriors ? Welcome back to the battlefield of the mind . Today , I'm here with Nathaniel done and this warrior is in the battle with me and we are gonna be pulling people out of hell and I mean this literally . So Welcome , nathaniel , and please tell these badass warriors who you are .
Speaker 2Thanks for having me , man . I've enjoyed our conversations up until now . Up until this moment , yeah , up until this moment . Well , I think there's a there's a real lack of real talk in the world and honesty and transparency and people willing to ask the tough questions and and Stick that flag in the in the ground and say this is what I stand for and this is what I think , and it seems like from our conversations up until now , you're clearly one of those guys , so I'm looking forward to this .
Speaker 2Who ? I ? I'm Changemaker . I'm really interested in change , fascinated by change , actually , and what that means for me is Change in someone that can lead to change in the world , someone who's gone through a lot of my own growth and change and completely change my life around and that's allowed me to now do work that I think is important and meaningful and significant in the world , and I see that there are a lot of problems that we face in our modern society and we need more people involved in in solutions rather than creating problems , and so that's that's what I'm interested in and what inspires me , and what that looks like is I'm I'm coaching , I'm working with Entrepreneurs , people who are using business as a tool for positive change in the world .
Speaker 2I'm helping people to figure out what they want from from from their life and who they are , and helping people get on and Be who they want to be in the world , and doing that through a number of different mediums , from writing and speaking , running groups , running men's groups . You know it , it takes a number of different forms , but but ultimately , that's that's what I'm about and what what interests me .
Speaker 1Yeah , you dropped it . You dropped a bunch of Pebbles here that we can go in deep . Unlike any of these options , everything from right now . People are starving for authenticity because there's so much fake in this world . And then also change and what that actually means and why people struggle with change . Are you on the problem team or solution team and then finding purpose in your men's group ? You're just listen , you you're planting these badass seeds here that we can go down and get people going . Damn , I needed , I needed to hear that . So , if it's okay with you , I'm gonna start it , the main thing , and then we're gonna go into some of the other things right now . Your purpose right now is men , and I am in the same fight with you . We're fighting for our guys . Why did you choose to go in the direction of like our men ? We need to , we need to fight together . Why did you choose that direction ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it just started to occur to me that that would be a useful place to look or useful place to focus on . I'm gonna Catch you on that because I've got that isn't my only purpose , really . My my purpose is broader than that , because I think I think what's going on with men is a is a vehicle for creating bigger change . I think the much bigger problems in terms of how we run our world and what we value and and how our system works , and I see that the male dynamic is at the root of much of that actually , and where that came from for me was actually Going to a men's group . Being invited to a men's group , I hired a coach when I first started my business and I was I I kind of I learned some , some skills to be able to to help people and to coach and to be you know good at facilitating change in someone and I assumed that that would mean , all of a sudden , the clients would appear .
Speaker 2And , as anyone who's gone into business for themselves knows , it doesn't work like that . And I was scratching my head for ages going . You know , I think I'm good at this , but I don't seem to have any clients . And I hired a guy to help me , a guy called anchor Jane who , to help me to grow my business . And when I hired him , he said to me I think you should come to this , this group that I run . He runs this thing called the Powerful Men's Abortion , which he's still running . I think he's been doing that 10 years now .
Speaker 2And I was like what is it ? You know , I don't know , I do what it was really . And he said look , trust me , it will . It will help you and it will help you with your business , but it will also help you with everything else . It'll help you with your relationship , it'll help you with your state of mind , it will help you with your health , it'll help you with anything . I was like whoa , that's a big claim , you know . But I trusted the guy , was just about to pay him a lot of money to help me and I was like you know what I'm gonna , I'm gonna trust you and I went to this , to this , this men's group , with no expectation .
Speaker 2Really , I didn't know what it was and it was such a powerful experience for me . It was a bunch of guys for a number of days and the rules were there's no judgment . We're not , we're all equal . There's no content , there's no agenda or curriculum or something . We're just here and we're here to learn and grow together . And whatever you bring to this , wherever you are seeking in your life , you bring it to this group . We're here and and that was quite a . That was pretty confronting actually , because I was like I don't Don't know how to play this game . You know , I've never been . I've never , ever , and I was . I think that was like 2017 maybe . So I was like mid 30s and I've got to that point and I thought I've never been in a space like this with other men ever , and that was really confronting .
Speaker 2I'm like I don't know what to do , you know , and what a bunch of stuff came up for me that weekend and it was huge for me and and it really really helped me and it helped me in ways that I could . It wasn't sort of explicit , I just I had feedback from important people in my life , specifically my mom and my sister at that time , who were really struggling . My little nephew just been been diagnosed with very serious illness that you know , genetic condition that he's never going to recover from , and the prognosis was was really bad and my family were really struggling . And I'd flown over to the UK for this because I was living in Australia and I went to this men's group right at the beginning of the trip and then I spent a couple of weeks with my family and at the end of that couple of weeks later , both independently , both my mom and my sister said to me there's something different about you and it's good . And I was like , oh okay , I don't know what that is . I wasn't consciously doing anything different and it really opened my mind to like , okay , there's something about that space and I Realized one it's needed and two , I Could help facilitate those kind of spaces too .
Speaker 2You know , the the magic of it was not that the the coach facilitating it was was a genius and don't get me wrong highly rate . That guy got massive amount of respect for him or work with him for a number of years . But it wasn't like his magnificence , that was the power in it , it was the , the deliberate cultivation of that kind of that kind of environment . And I was like , okay , I could do that too , and and so I started to do those those kind of things too and Just started really seeing the impact of it and the ripples that were going out , not just from from not getting just getting that feedback from the men in the room , but getting that feedback from other people who were coming to be afterwards and saying Do you really I can see what you've done with this person , or that they're different .
Speaker 2And I Just started to realize hang on a minute , this is In terms of leverage . I think of it in terms of leverage , like if you want to create change in the world , the more you can focus on . You know , the one thing that's going to have the biggest knock-on impact and I started to realize Doing work with men is one of is an area that is a high-leverage area because it impacts them , impacts their families , it impacts the broader male dynamic , it impacts the business world , it impacts everything . And so that's what really got me on to really seeing the value of it and being willing to pursue it , in spite of the fact that actually it's not . Probably , from a business perspective , it's not the easiest place to focus , because it's not like there's queues of men standing there going where we're ready to Understand ourselves it's actually the opposite , but but I think it's important , you know , and it still is .
Speaker 1It's highly important . You you covered a lot of really good stuff that the people who listen to what I do they understand . I'm right there with you . We created the Warriors way mindset to do the same thing . It's a round table with a creed , and the second rule is no blame , no shame , no judgment . We don't . The past is to teach us not to tear each other down . You know , every loss is a lesson , like we the same thing where it's a round table , and we teach also to challenge everything , which is why , if you know , you were in a group with me , just like the guy you were talking about . Challenge me too . I'm also in an evolution , I'm also rowing , so it's not you know , I'm the king and you're in my group . It's ? This is Arthur's round table . Please speak your . Speak your voice . Like I need to hear from you too . We get stronger together . So you found a lot of pieces in here , especially getting into leadership and what that means . You're also right in calling out all of our brothers out there who are Low wolves and think they have to do it all on their own .
Speaker 1One thing I found is that for us guys , we're taught that we are not supposed to seek help because it's considered weakness , and most guys don't actually listen to advice until they're in crisis , until they go . I have done all the things I thought was right and it's not working . What do you say ? Like , we don't listen until we're proving our own . Stuff doesn't work and , unfortunately , rock bottom is a gnarly Place to be alone , and that's why together we are stronger .
Speaker 1I enjoy that when you mention , like , when you see the guys together in a space where you can remove your armor , it creates growth , and that's the power of the pack versus being a lone wolf . Yeah , together we're way stronger , and so I . I also have found the same calling where it's like Don't you see how badass we are when we team up our different strengths and then tackle the same problem ? Hmm , here's another thing I want to add in like and this is something that's been pretty important I've worked with men's groups , I've worked with women's groups and I've worked with people across the globe , and there's something that women are struggling with today with their men . What is your take ?
Speaker 2I'm working with men and this one word empathy hmm , I think I did a collaboration with with a guy who'd been a one-on-one client of mine and he's come to me Because his wife had basically given him an ultimatum and said , because he'd come off the rails In his sort of early 50s and had achieved amazing things really successful Guy and done really well , ticked all the boxes and got to this point where he was like what's , what's this all about ? You know , I've done everything that I thought I would do and I'm not feeling how I thought I would feel , and he's made some Pretty bad decisions at that point and put their relationship at risk . And she gave him an ultimatum and said that we can continue and I'm happy to . I want to stay with you , but you need to sort yourself out . And that's how we got talking and we did some work together and got back on track . And then we did a collaboration together and we create this , this , this men's group , and I had an opportunity at that point .
Speaker 2His wife was was Running a network of of of women in business and she said do I , when you run a business , you can talk to my network about it ? And I said Fantastic , it was like six thousand women in this group and I thought I don't know how to talk to women about this , because I've only ever , when I've been feeling men's groups , I talked to men and I've obviously mentioned it to women in my world that that's what I'm doing , but I've never like gone really deep into it with with women and I thought I just don't I'm not sure of the language , of like how to communicate this To women . And so I did what I usually do and I don't know the answer and I asked questions and listened and I did a research project and I talked to 50 women over probably four or five months maybe , and Asked them . I wasn't going , hey , here's , here's the men's group , what do you think I was ? Just I was doing research , I was asking , I was asking questions like you know what ? What do you think ? What do you think is going on with with the men in your world ? What do you think they need , what ? Where do you think they're struggling ? Like what , what do you think is needed in the broader male dynamic ? And I talked to 50 women , old , young .
Speaker 2Some of them were talking about their partners , some of them are talking about their kids , their sons , some of them are talking about their fathers ,
Communication and Empathy in Relationships
Speaker 2but consistently , the , the . The message from all of them was Thank God , someone's doing something , and the . The big thing that came through from that was I can see that the , the man in my world , is doing his best and he's trying , and he's just doesn't know that . He doesn't know that he's doing his best and he just doesn't know that he doesn't know how to communicate to me . He doesn't , he's not able to articulate how he feels and what he wants , and I can see that he's not being honest with me because he's scared of upsetting me , and that that's a massive barrier . And this is this huge issue in our relationship , and it's not just romantic relationships . This is , you know , friendly relationships , parental relationships , and so I don't think it's that men don't have empathy . I know a lot of very empathetic men . I think it's the no empathy for men .
Speaker 1That's where . That's where that's where the gap women to men has been and like just to kind of piggyback on this , not being honest with her and then , like you know , he can't share his feelings with me and all of these things . We've heard the stop where women are saying I need you to be my safe place , I need you to be my safe place , right ? We've heard this . Be a safe place for her , right ? Yeah , not just physically as a protector , but also emotionally and mentally . Be safe for her . If she's venting , don't fix it , just be safe for her , right ? We've heard that . What guys should do ?
Speaker 1I did a survey with over a hundred men Just asking , cuz I got enough guys in my group , I'm asking first question are your feelings important to you ? And Every 100% said yes , my feelings are important to me . And I said do you believe your feelings are important to her ? And 97 said no , my feelings are not important . Now it's important here to explain the difference between a feeling and well-being . Getting you a sandwich , what's the feeling ? Making sure your laundry is done ? What feeling is that , you know ? Making sure that you have , you know , your lunchbox ? Or you have , like you know the Gas in the car . What feeling is that ? Well , not one of those is a feeling . Those are all well-being . Those are just things we're taking care of , that we need to done .
Speaker 1But when it comes to how does your man feel ? Well , his sadness , that's not attractive . I don't get your shit together . We got work to do . How we're gonna do to fix it ? How are you gonna fix that ? What are you doing about it ? I'm having a very tough day of work and I'm really struggling . Well , you can't quit your job because if you do , our safety and security is at risk . So you can't quit your job . So what are you gonna do about it ? There's no addressing your feelings . Hmm , this all goes into well-being or self-preservation . So each guy is going .
Speaker 1When my feelings come up , my sadness is shamed . If I'm overly silly , I'm too ridiculous and too loud and too much . And if I get angry , especially in the relationship , also shame . And so women would consistently say I want my man to be that , that leader and that rock for our relationship . I want him to be the rock for us . And I said that sounds awesome . What emotions do rocks have ? Rocks don't have emotions . You want a statue . I want to be stoic , but you won't acknowledge that he's a human . I'm like that's consistent . Now let's go ahead and address the three that were no .
Speaker 1I think that my woman has empathy . Two of those guys were in the first two weeks of a relationship and so was the honeymoon phase and they all broke up . And one guy was in complete denial of his relationship and they are already divorced because she actually wasn't doing any empathy . He was just in denial . And so , like the three oddballs that were like we're gonna defy the rule , I'll prove the rule . So I have a 100% thing that the women don't show empathy for their men .
Speaker 1And then when I worked in the women's groups and I've worked with multiple women's groups , I've had my own warrior groups for women we had to break denial and excuses and justifications and it took weeks to crack through that for authenticity around Do you care about his feelings or is this for what your well-being or what you think he needs to provide for you ? Mm-hmm , and men were loved for what they provide and not for being human beings . Hmm , and that was the universal . So okay , where does a man then have a fighting chance to be heard and loved and respected for being a human and this is why you bringing up the men's groups is important . Our places that we create I have it , you have it is the only place a guy can take his armor off and be a human and not be shamed for it . The only empathy my guys get generally especially because a lot of the relationships that they started were from an unhealthy place for themselves and they would choose somebody who was also unhealthy and they have unhealthy dynamics , are trying to navigate . The only person who shows I care about you as a person , just for being Men , can do it for other men . That's an important factor that I found , because the women Are universally not doing it .
Speaker 1I wish I had a much higher percentage , but even out of a hundred guys , I didn't have enough variant to go . There's enough here that needs to be challenged more . It's a 100% so far and I'm very open to where , like you know , you hear in my comment section , I've got millions of views , comments that I do it . I do empathy . Let me go ahead and clarify . If I said , if I was you , that's how I would feel , that's not empathy , that's about you , it's not about them anymore . What do you feel ? If that was me , I would feel this way . You just took it off of them and made it about you . That is not empathy , that's you . It's the opposite of empathy . It just made it about you . It became selfish , yeah . And so this is where people think they're doing empathy by a being agreeable or b making it about them , not empathy . Or I'm empathetic because I took care of the I , you know , I got his shoes for him or I booked the hotel for him . Well , that's not a feeling . Those are well-being .
Speaker 1Now , can women have empathy for children ? Absolutely Empathy for other women ? Yes
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Speaker 1, they can . Yes , they can . Empathy for a tv show character ? Yes , yes , they can . But there is a block for their man , their protector , provider , presider . There's a block for empathy there because the weakness in that category Inhibits some sort of self preservation , safety , security , reassurance system that needs to be strong .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah , I think . I think that's a kind of a subset of women , isn't it ? Or a subset of relationships that's a romantic relationship . Certainly , my , my overall sense from from talking to women about this is that is like they're with us . They want us to be grounded and
(Cont.) Communication and Empathy in Relationships
Speaker 2Understand ourselves and communicate . I felt like , from my research into this , they were our biggest supporters in that , in that really , they , you know , they were like come on , we , we , we need men to rise up to we rise up better together . I , that was a very strong thing , bear in mind . It wasn't just about romantic relationships . It was People talking about their brothers or their or their kids and or even their fathers .
Speaker 2I think , when it comes to the romantic relationships , that becomes then confusing , because there's this I don't think , actually , women often know what they want , because they want Everything from a man . They want them to be safe and stable and be a provider , but they also want them to be wild and adventurous and , and you know , exciting . They want them to be reliable , but they also want to be a danger and it's like hang on a minute , that's , that's a really tough gig for a man like what do you want from me . You know , am I , am I the lover ? Am I the provider ? Am I , am I ? Um , you're confident who you know . Listen to your , your , your problems . Do you want me to solve the problems ? You want me to be a listener ? It's like , fuck , where do I ? For a man it's confusing . But I think it's coming from a confusion on the other side too . I'm like , oh , I want my guide to be everything , and and I'm not sure you can be , certainly not at the same time , and I think that can create this .
Speaker 2You know , shaming in a certain moment , or Frustration in a certain moment . You know I need you to be this In this moment . It's like , well , hang on a minute , I thought you wanted me to be that , so I'm trying to be that , and now you want me to be this . And it's contextual . I think it's a communication thing largely , but it's , um , it's a challenge on both sides . Men don't know how to be and , um , women don't necessarily know what they want or they do , but if they want , it all and that's it . With the sliding scale , it keeps changing and so that's a point .
Speaker 1It's moving go post when , whenever .
Speaker 1I work with guys . The main two categories I see guys coming in with . The most common of curses is anger and shame . Anger and shame , anger and doubt those are the biggest one . For guys I'm not doing good enough and uh . For women
Gender Expectations in Relationships
Speaker 1it's denial and excuses are the main ones . They get into blame , guys , go into shame and so , like that's the thing . So women are going to go and blame and say , uh , you should be ashamed because you're not good enough For something that I don't even know .
Speaker 1What I want , it's a sliding scale of judgment to tell you how you're not doing it right , but I don't even know what right is , because it may change tomorrow . So today I want you to be financially stable , and tomorrow I want you to be physically amazing , and then the next day I want you to be my therapist , and then the next day I want you to be the bad boy . But then the next day I want you to be the good guy , and this day I want you to be a great father . But this day I also want you to be the adventurer . And you're like I don't know who I'm supposed to be for this sliding scale . And no matter what I'm , they'll say I nail it and then the next day you're like you're not nailing it because I also wanted you to be this too . Oh , I have a list . If you want to crack up , I I actually ask my people , just like you do . Like I don't know the answer . Let me ask questions .
Speaker 1And I surveyed multiple women's groups For what do you want in a man ? And I made up a list called the prince charming . I made up this prince charming list on my own and it was as ridiculous of a list as like it was most obscene . Like he's a great dancer , perfect smile . He still has a bunch of money , super generous with his money , takes care of everybody , always stoic , you know . Like he's a great cook , but he's also Super educated . Like this ridiculous list . Like it was across the board . It was like 60 things is Ascending as I could get . And I said ladies , this is my list . And they were like this list is insane . I was like we'll make your own list , ladies . They came back and their list was longer . Their list was longer .
Speaker 1I did a video on this as a video on my tiktok of me reading the list that ladies say this is what we want from a guy . And this dude was beyond impossible and I even threw this out there . This is the superficialness of not knowing what you want . I said , ladies , let's do this . I'm going to give you your wish . There's 79 things on here and I'm going to give you a guy who has all of them and I'm even going to add in two extra ones .
Speaker 1Amazing protector he's a fucking ninja . He can take out a six , five giant . He's an , he's the badass and he's got a huge deck . Like I'm going to give you , above and beyond this whole list , I'm going to add those two . He's a ninja and he'll fuck you into retardation and you're going to love it . It's going to be amazing , amazing . And they're like we like this and I'm like sign me up . And I'm like he's five foot three , more than half Bailed on the perfect guy because he was born Shorter than they think he should be . Wow , the most ridiculous list . Millionaire , good family , loves their kids , takes care of everything , good cook , great dancer , great smile , super intelligent , highly educated . Like the list was insane .
Speaker 1I also added a ninja and huge , long , still too short to deal breaker . And I said can you imagine A man who's got all 80 of these things ? What do you believe you bring to his table to be this selective ? Because this guy is like a top one percenter . What are you able to be so judgmental for that you bring to the table ? And there was no it's it's ? You want to know what the you want to know what the sound was ? We , we don't have a , we didn't do any self-assessment . We gaslight our own introspection . The women moat in most cases won't Really ask hard questions to themselves because it's gonna be justified for some reason or another , and so he didn't assess . What is my value that I bring to a guy who's perfect ? He's just not not tall enough for me . Hmm , it's not a protector issue because he's a ninja , so it's not like well , he's short , so he can't keep me safe . That's not the guy . He'll , he'll . Jean-claude van Damme , kick someone in the face .
Speaker 1That's not . This is the guy right . Had nothing to do with it . That's amazing . Now the men's list I think it was 11 things and Every single thing on the list had nothing to do like the . Even the attractiveness , which is the most common one people would put guys under . They're like just above average , like I don't need her to be a 10 like , give me like a six . And like she tries , like she at least like eats
Gender Dynamics and Societal Expectations
Speaker 1well and takes care of her body , like she like at least makes an effort . I don't need her to be perfect , I'd rather her be like she's pretty and she tries , like I'd rather that you know , and they did that you know the hot , crazy scale . I've never seen that .
Speaker 1Chart they're like I'd like her to be at least average hot and they were being generous to go at least under eight crazy , which is a very high number , by the way . Like I'm like it , let's be real . If we can get down under four , that's probably a good number . But they're like no , no wait , we'll accept a high level of crazy as long as they're trying . The rest of the list was Be a great listener , be compassionate , be nurturing , be loving , be fun , be kind and kind . This was really the big one . Don't be nagging , don't be complaining , don't be bitching , be kind , be be . It shows some sort of effort to be empathetic or compassionate or care . The list was all just kind thing . Appreciation was really big , just appreciate , have gratitude . That was the list that guys put down and if you look at the women's list , even when I share it to women , they were like this is an insane fucking list . And they look at the men's list . I'm like where these guys really being chauvinistic and sexist or anything that they're like . This is the most reasonable list I've ever seen , surveyed by women also . This isn't just the guys tooting their horn . Yeah Well , that leaves a big gap in the whole thing , like you're not good enough , based on somebody who doesn't know what they want . And Yet this is a leadership thing .
Speaker 1I'm gonna give you another piece . I'm just dropping stuff on you , nate . So here's one of the things . So when I did , I did another survey Based on like let's see what was I talking about . They don't know what they want . They have this thing . I think I just lost my train of thought . We're so live . It hurts right now .
Speaker 1Ah , so this is what it ended up being for women . They found this out where they came to advertisements . Women are far more susceptible to being socially accepted the Jones effect , if you will . They found this out in like the 60s . They started changing all their ads over to have it . So , like choosy moms , choose Jeff . Or like all good moms , do this . Or you know the women in the know they do it this way . Or if you want to be up on trend , you need to wear the style . Or if you want to look good , you know , you know you wear this makeup .
Speaker 1Like they started realizing if you wanted to get sales , women were the one who would fall for the ads the most because they wanted to have social acceptance and be a part of it . And if you started looking at the way the ads work , they don't work as well on men . So now multiply that by social media about , like how people post up , how their families are or how they are , and the social approval of having like the perfect thing , the perfect thing , and the comparisons and how women will start changing Themselves based on what they're seeing others do , and they're influenced highly by outsourced or outside sources . They're highly influenced . I want that or I'm not good enough , or I compare myself to , or why isn't mine not like that ? Now I riddle , riddle me this With men . Do you think the susceptibility is around the same for guys ? If you saw a Calvin Klein ad and now you have to look like that model and buy that underwear , is it the same for us ?
Speaker 2I've got no idea . I think how ?
Speaker 1Influenced are you ?
Speaker 2I think men and motivate more , motivated by what women think of them rather than what everyone else thinks of them .
Speaker 1Correct a Mundo , which means if we're highly influenced by our girl and we'll change ourselves Based on what our girl says that she wants , but she's highly influenced by all these outside sources and constantly changing her mind , who do you think should be them and in charge of the direction here ? The person who will keep true north and do what they believe is right for the pack ? Or the person who's constantly Influenced in changing their mind all the time ? Who should be steering the boat ? This is not because I'm saying one is better than the other , but one is gonna make sure the whole pack is okay and the other one is gonna start shaming the pack because they saw a Facebook image of Somebody who has all of the kids and them wearing the same flannel and a pumpkin patch , looking like a perfect family , and our kids are jumping off the couch and riding on the walls . We're not good enough . That's your fault , instead of going , we have healthy kids and you're safe and we have all the things that we need and I love you . Why would we worry about that person's photo ? Because one month later , that family is getting a divorce and that was just a picture that was taken . Well , who's not gonna be influenced to say like you're not good enough because I saw another image , yeah , guys don't care .
Speaker 1Like and I surveyed my guys I'm like , hey , if you saw a picture of you know Victoria's Secret ad and go like my girl doesn't look like that , do you go home and go . You're not beautiful because she is and I had zero , guys are like we don't give fuck about that . No , I've never gone to my girl and gone . Be a size zero . Have you ever done that to your girl and go ? I need you a size zero now . No , we don't do that . Guys are not . We're not connected to that . Hmm , but women are constantly saying I'm not enough . Based on an outside comparison that had nothing to do with my man at all , because none of my guys were falling in this category of putting that kind of pressure on their women . But women were putting that pressure on themselves from outside . Validation . Who should be calling the shots ? Yeah , but if we're changing ourselves based on a person whose scale is constantly changing , based on a social media post , we're headed right for the crash . We're gonna smash .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's , it's um , it's what we said before . It's just moving goalposts , isn't it ? It's unsteady ground . It's like uh-huh . Am I doing well here or not ? I don't know , but I thought I was and I'm not sure .
Speaker 1So what's what's your take ? Those are , those are a few of the things . Survey wise , what , what's your take ? Where you go like man , interesting info , what do we do with this , or how can we support our guys , or what would be like a potential , like solution to one of these things that , like , I wouldn't say it's a problem , but I say it's a leadership issue .
Speaker 2Yeah , I think it depends what , what the problem is we're trying to solve .
Speaker 2I mean , the thing that really came up for me when you , when you were sharing , that was one of the reasons why I see such huge value in in men's groups in terms of Doing doing the work and and finding a deeper understanding and and as a vehicle for , for growth .
Speaker 2Because Definitely , one of the things that I've seen and I've been this guy too is , in Some of mixed spaces , when you're doing the deep work or seeking to do that To better yourself and understand yourself more deeply , that's really hard . We've got a hot girl in the room like it's just you men are different and we immediately we've got there , like we're not going to be as vulnerable , we're not going to be as open and not gonna be as honest , and I I've I've seen that , I've been that , I've been in these kind of spaces where there's real potential for Transformation and it's like , yeah , but I'm not gonna say what I really think because she's cute , and I don't want to be honest about this because I'm embarrassed , and I I think that's one of the reasons why that I see such huge potential for for these spaces for men , because there's a level of depth that Men will go to give the right circumstances .
Speaker 1Yeah , we can't take the armor off if there's somebody there . There's . There's a thing inside of all of us men that I think people forget is . There's a little boy inside of all of us who wants to impress you . Oh , look what I can do , look at how fast I can go , or look what I can jump off of , or look what I can build , or look what I drew , or look what I've made , or look how strong I am , or whatever . There's a part of us that wants to impress the girl . Oh , even if you don't even have real intent , you're like well , I don't want to look dumb in front of this girl . Yeah , like . There's a thing inside , like , even if you were like , let's just say you're doing a workout and you're like , man , this is fucking heavy . And then a cute girl's like hey guys , what are you doing ? Can I watch ? You're gonna be like put on another plate . You know , like all of a sudden you just got superhuman strength and you will . You will literally break bones to make sure you don't look dumb in front of her .
Speaker 1There's a thing inside of us that wants to go like be impressed . There's a . There's a reason . There's cheerleaders at sports events . There's a psychological thing that we want to perform better . When you've got a girl cheering you on and a lot of times the relationships that we choose is because she was the best cheerleader at the beginning you know we choose them based on like man . She made me feel the most inspired and I wanted to be better every time I was around her .
Speaker 1That's a part of men , that's a part of us and I went through like roles of a man . And when I start going through all of the roles that men do for like our like what's a man's job ? Like protector , provider , presider , being the voice of reason , we're the empathetic ones . For like all the pack and we make sure everyone's needs are addressed . Like we go into all of these different things and at the end of like that is like 11 things that we had for our guys , like that's our role .
Speaker 1At the end the guys were like every one of our jobs is to serve others . Every job that we do is for other people where men are natural givers and I think it's forgotten the provider I go get and then make sure you have it . That's a provider , that's a giver . I will protect you with my life , I will give my physical well-being and put it on the line so you're safe . That's a giver . I will make sure that there is balance and peace here , because I will try and keep the logic intact here the best I can . That's a giver , yeah .
Speaker 2And I think that's the givers . Yeah , totally I agree , and I see that that , which is a noble thing and it's a , it's a virtue . It's a virtue , it's coming from a positive place , and I also see that it's a source of major struggle for a lot of men because in doing that , they very often sacrifice themselves and they very often Don't even acknowledge , actually don't even connect to hang on . What do I want here ? What do I need Like what's the right thing for me , because very often it seems like it's at odds with what their partner needs or what their kids need or what their family needs .
Speaker 2It seems like there's this idea that I've heard many , many , many times , both implicitly and explicitly , from men , which is , if I do what's right for me , that that's selfish and that that's not , that's not being a provider , is not doing the right thing for other people and that's a . That's a very binary way of looking at that . I just I don't . I don't see it like that . Actually , the I've got a men's group running at the moment which is a virtual men's group , and the whole premise is you can , you can connect to what you want and create what you want , and that's actually the gift that you can give to everybody around you . Like you being you and you owning that and you creating everything that you want and not settling and and not selling yourself short . That's absolutely the best thing for your partner or your kids or your family . Like you being connected to that , such a powerful Stance . That doesn't have to be , doesn't have to cost them . It can actually be the best thing . And that can seem totally counterintuitive , or I don't think it is .
Speaker 1I completely I did a men's group right before this call and that topic came up today where I have guys who are business owners and guys who are very successful , multimillion dollar exchanges happening with these guys's business and they feel like when they work On their stuff , they're selfish . That was the the belief system put on them by not only parents with spouses . You're being selfish . And I said wait a second , what do you do when you have an abundance of something ? And they say when I have an abundance , I just make sure everybody else is good , I make sure my kids are good , I make sure she's good , to make sure the house has got like , I make sure everything is better , I improve everyone else's life . And I'm like who else is more worthy of abundance or working on themselves ?
Speaker 1When the more that you have , the more you make sure others have , isn't that the person who should have the most ? Because they make sure others are good ? That is a good leader . But if you're like I gather , gather , gather , covet and hold to myself and I hoard and all of you starve while I thrive , well , that person does not . It's not a leader . That's a taker , not a giver . But a good man . A good leader is a giver and so that guy should be selfish , because he's actually selfless . Yeah , so that's . Should you want more ? Yes , because if I have more , you have more . So , judging , and this can't give what you haven't got to give .
Speaker 1So that guy should be working on getting more , because then all ships rise with a good leader around . Yeah , let's go ahead and fight an enemy together and tell me if this feels like a worthy , noble cause for you . I right now have a high target for judgments . Right now , I'm like we have to start catching judgments . This is the weapon for compliance . These days , you're bad , you're not good , you're the you're . You're the , you're
The Impact of Judgments on Society
Speaker 1the stupid one , or you're a chauvinist , or you're a bigot or you're anything . They start judge , judge , judge , as though everyone who just has an opinion is now an authority . And this is how people change , based on social acceptance . Like and I've done this example multiple times and I think I just want to have you start with it what is your take when you see the effects of judgments and the problems that come with it , especially societally ? Not even just men or not even women , but just how people operate to tear each other down by saying you're not good enough because I made it up ?
Speaker 2Um , I think , I think we can't help but judge . It's an innate thing for us , it's a survival mechanism . Actually , you know we have to . Someone crosses our path . We need to make a judgment immediately . Are they a threat ? Are they food Like it's ?
Speaker 2It's it's deep within us to be automatically judgmental , um , and so in that sense , I don't think we should beat ourselves up for for that . That's evolved over many , many millions of years and thousands of generations , um , to keep us alive , and it probably has kept you alive up until now . So , so in a sense , I wouldn't want to . I criticize the , the . The reflex is like automatic judgment . That happens , um , where I think it it becomes a problem is where people Assume that their initial judgment is the absolute truth and aren't willing to To look at it and question it .
Speaker 2Um , I think , for me certainly and I'm calling myself out as growing up in a very judgmental culture British culture is massively judgmental . We've still got a huge chip on our shoulder , I think , as a , as a culture , there's still this like Wiff of imperialism going on and you know , thinking we're better than everyone else . And , um , I'm lucky that I Uh , lived in London for for a lot of years and been around the world a fair bit as well and and have many friends from from lots of different cultures and and spent time living away from the UK as well . That really helped me to see that , because it's hard to see it when that's all you can see , but but when you start to to get um other perspectives , I think you can start to notice just your , your innate , um innate judgments , and I think , having sort of seen Through that to to a large degree , I'm sure I get caught up in my own judgments to on a regular basis . In fact I know I do because I catch them all the time um , but I think that's where it becomes an issue is like but here's a bunch of judgments and they are True because what I think is obviously right and I'm not willing to even question them , I'm not willing to Um have them challenged , I'm not willing to even look at my own judgments . I think it's just as true for Self judgments as it is for judgments of others as well . You know , we I think one of the things that I see is the .
Speaker 2The biggest challenge that anyone faces is their own judgments of themselves . Um , and so I see many , many problems created by judgment , so much conflict and so much just refusal to acknowledge different perspectives , refusal to , you know , be open to a different way of being in the world or of seeing things . You know that it's judgment that gets in the way of all of that , and so , for me , the ability to recognize judgment and to catch it and to be able to kind of put it there and look at it and be like , hang on a minute , this is a judgment right now and I'm coming from this and am I cool with that ? Does this actually true ? Am I willing to change that or be open to seeing it differently ?
Speaker 2That for me , seems like a vehicle for change , for growth and for the broadening of perspective . And , to be honest , that's a pretty major part of my work with people , really helping them catch their own judgments . And that's where you know the people who I've got around me in terms of coaches and mentors and men's groups and various things , as part of the reason I invest heavily in those kind of things , because people help me to see my judgments . So I think it's a huge area . I think it's such a again in terms of leverage . I think it's a place to look that can impact so many things .
Speaker 1Yeah , there's an arm . I give you a praise too for bringing up multiple different assets and even being able to assess intent , because one would be to able to . Like you said , I'm going to assess danger and judge whether this is dangerous or not dangerous , but I don't think that that's the criticism that shames people into submission and
The Impact of Judgment and Self-Esteem
Speaker 1self sensors them into hating themselves . Going like this is not a safe alley to go down . This seems like a bad place to be . Those are judgments based on survival and safety . Fair enough .
Speaker 1But if I say I hate your fucking shirt , well , where's the safety and the danger ? Well , no , I just made you feel like my shirt's not good Based on what you just made up , some bullshit out of nowhere . And now I'm like Well , maybe this shirt isn't good and I didn't even think about it , I just threw it out and what's wrong with it ? And now we start doubting ourselves and questioning and what's wrong ? This is not a good fit for me and I've seen people , their entire belief system , shattered in just one judgment . You know , and I will say , even working with women , most of the self internal like damage done was from another woman judging them , especially at a young age , usually a mom thing . We're like that looks terrible on your figure and they go . This was my favorite outfit until you said that , and I have actually worked with women who , like just that one sentence , ruin their self esteem because they didn't have any defenses against the person that loves them the most .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know . And so judgments becomes dangerous based on intent or purpose and having the awareness to catch them . So I'm with you . I really enjoyed your right , the British culture thing . Good call , good call . But you know I'm not a part of that one , so it's like I didn't think about that . You're right Culturally , like we're better than everybody else . Just the culture itself is designed to say we're judgmental . Yeah , that's a tough . That's a tough one to even build a defense for when it's the default for the nation .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's tough because you can't see it , which I think is true for self judgment too , like when someone , like the lady that you mentioned , forms a judgment of herself . Very often this happens at a really young age and , like you say , sometimes it can just be one thing , that said , or it doesn't have to be a result of major trauma , you know , it can just be a family dynamic or certain look or certain thing , and someone takes on this judgment and it's so deep in them that they can't see it . Then it becomes who they are and it's like this narrative , it's like this is the story of me , and because we live through our stories of us , it becomes true , and so we project it and we're like I'm a loser , so now everything I , everything I touch , is rubbish because I'm a loser and I'm . You know , there's a saying in . I think it came from I think it came from Gregory Basin . It was what the thinker thinks , the proof approves . It's like your idea is alive in you and it's seeking evidence to validate that it's true , whether it's a good idea or not . And if that idea happens to be a self judgment , it's like you're , you're , you're constantly validating it and approving it to be true , just just because you think it and it's because it's out of sight that it's an issue . I think when you can bring it into sight , then it becomes something that you can work with , like the cultural thing .
Speaker 2I remember I was going out with a girl , a Bulgarian girl , who had lived in a few countries , actually before she came to the UK , but she was living in the UK and that's where we met and remember her saying to me British culture is just so judgmental , she said . I walk in a room and I immediately feel the judgment based on my accent , based on my skin color , based on what I'm wearing . She's like , I just feel it more than anywhere else that I've lived . And at the time I was just , you know , I was laughing at her , I was like , nah , what are you talking about ? You know , this is , it's super sensitive and it's it's not real and I just I couldn't see it and it was just a source of a joke , you know which , which for me , was just me judging her . And it was only when I then lived away and was in a different culture . I mean , the Aussie culture is , you know , not a million miles from the British culture and it's got some aspects of American culture too , I think , but it's definitely not British .
Speaker 2And the more
Cultural Differences and Judgmental Nature
Speaker 2I lived there , the more I started to notice it in every . I would come back every year and every time I came back to the UK I would just see it . I would just see when I'd landed in the airport and I would just be surrounded by British people and there's still quite a few British people in Australia , but I wasn't surrounded by them and when I'd come in I would just see the , the tension and the friction , and I would just start to notice the , the Britishness , you know , and there was many aspects to what that is , but one of them was this , this judgmental nature , and the more I could see it in other people , the more I could then start to see it myself . And then that then became .
Speaker 2It was quite confronting , actually it's quite confronting to see that you have had a whole bunch of assumptions and judgments and deeply ingrained beliefs that were part of who you thought you were , that all of a sudden you go hang on a minute , I didn't choose this Like this is . I've learned this stuff , I've learned to think like this , and some of it's great . You know , there's many aspects of the culture that I love and also many that I don't , and one of the things that I don't is is the the judgmental nature of it , and I remember going to her after you know , years later , like three or four years after she said that to me , I was like fuck , I get it . I finally get it , and I see how toxic that is and I see how limiting that is , I see how that totally gets in the way and that's just not helpful .
Speaker 1And the more that you've leveled up like it makes it so it's easier for you to navigate by knowing thyself to go like . Ah , I got to separate myself from that , that opinion or that , that energy .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1I know you're right .
Speaker 2I'm not judge yourself for it , Because that in itself is a judgment . You're like oh I'm , so I can judge mental .
Speaker 1Well , I'm always like this yeah , you're being a piece of shit and you it is so stupid You're like stop beating you up . Yeah , yeah , it's culturally is the thing to . I grew up in Detroit . I don't know if you know much about America , but not a lot of people go to Detroit and go what a lovely environment . Like it's a tough city . It's a very tough city , it's a tough culture and like it's hard . Detroit's a hard city and you know there's a lot of violence , a lot of a lot of anger , a lot of angst . It's just cold , not a lot of manners .
Speaker 1And I moved to Virginia for a few years in Virginia's town , south , and so they're like you know the culture is like warm , southern , southern hospitality and it's very like good morning , how you doing , like it's super kind and so you get used to kind of being around that like hey , good morning , you open the door for random stranger Like thank you very much . Good morning , hey , how you doing , like just really nice . And I remember going back after a couple of years back home where my family was in Detroit , open the door and say hey , what's up , man ? And they looked at me like fuck you . And I was like back at home again . Here we are . That's I forgot . That's what . That's what the normal was Is that it's just hard and mean and don't fucking talk to me , and that energy is just like go fuck yourself .
Speaker 1Energy just being around it . And . But I grew up in Sparta , I grew up in that , and so I'm like that's just regular . Until you get out of that and go why is nobody here , speaks spartan , just like you said . Why aren't you guys being as judgmental ? I'm judging that that , that I'm gonna do that here Like that's normal , right , not everywhere else , and so that's it's . I think it's a good observation . And man , how fucked , how fucked do we feel when we're like I was gaslighting that girl when she was like damn , you can feel that energy like no , you can't , that's just you , but she's like no , it really was there .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Being it yeah .
Speaker 2Yes , that's the thing with judgments you can't see them very often .
Speaker 2This is why the art to it is to be . Actually , I think it's one of the most powerful things anyone can do in the journey of self improvement and self discovery is to really deliberately and consciously look at where am I judging myself , other people , the world , like , what are the judgments that I've got ? Because some of them will be useful but many of them really won't . And that's it's hard , man , because it's you've got to go deep and it's a lot of it's very unconscious , but it's it's so freeing actually , because it frees you up to at least be , at least have some choice Like do I want to continue to think like this or not ?
Speaker 1Yeah , or will I apply that judgment to my belief system or will I decline the offer ? You know being able to . That's why I'm with you . The first , the first skill we train in the warrior's way is awareness . Did you see it ? Because you can't make a choice you don't know exists . Yeah . So that's the first thing up . Did you see it ? There's a choice there . Did you see it ? Are you going to apply that judgment to your belief system and identity or are you going to say that's not authentic to me ? I know myself .
Speaker 1You get to pick , you know , and a lot of times we're subconsciously trying to appease a group or a person , or you know somebody who's like those shoes don't go with that man . You're like oh shit , I should go change these shoes Instead of going like I love the shoes and they're not for you . Like we don't stand up for ourselves because we want to be accepted . We're social creatures but we fall for it all the time . That's where it gets into .
Speaker 1Like you said , the pace that I would say training for this is people can't handle the truth very well , and so if I were to say we can't speak in radical truths because people can't handle the truth , especially their own . That's the hardest part . You're not wrong . They can't handle their own truth , and so the first step I would go to is practicing acceptance first , Instead of judging , just accept . That's where they are , that's what they did , or that's how they see it . I don't have to have an opinion to say you're bad , you're good , you're right , you're wrong . I can simply say I see where you're coming from , I just don't agree , and that's , I think , where people have gone off . The deep end for polarization is it turns into a judgmental conversation versus a disagreement .
Speaker 1And that's why I say judgments , is probably the enemy that I want to go after next , because it's the thing that destroys people from the inside out , based on a subjective opinion with
Confidence Evolution and Overcoming Judgments
Speaker 1no facts necessary . We need to be able to challenge those things , to know myself , know exactly what it is that I'm seeing , so I can choose whether I apply it or don't apply it , and then assess is the intention behind this judgment for danger and protection , or is it just somebody sharing their authoritarian opinion ? Well then I can decide whether I apply or don't apply , because I can accept that they have an opinion , but it doesn't need to be in mind , because I'm confident enough in who I am to not apply it . How do you develop this type of confidence ?
Speaker 1Our men's groups . They join your group , they join my group , they join us and we go hey , you can take your armor off here . Have you noticed this ? Tell me if you found this in your group . My men's confidence are so high now that they can be authentic in the world and people completely invalidate them and they're like I don't care , because I have men that I respect , men of honor and men of dignity that accept me 100% . So if you don't get it . I'm good have you found that too , yeah .
Speaker 2I think it's a natural evolution that comes and it's not a confidence . I think often people think of confidence as like swagger or kind of arrogance or something . It's not that like showy confidence , it's like a quite confidence yeah , okay , we're good , I'm good , whatever's going on here , I'm cool . Yeah , you're disagreeing with me or you're having a pop of me , or you don't like my idea , or you know you're saying no to my ask or whatever , and that's okay , because I don't need validation from this , because I've already done that work to to be grounded and validated and connected to who I am , so I don't actually need that . It kind of removes the neediness . I think it often removes people's attachment to outcomes , which doesn't mean that they're not ambitious , so they're still going out and creating great outcomes , but not from a place of like , I need this to be okay . Yeah , and that then creates this emotional freedom which looks like confidence . That feels like confidence . Yeah , it's like whatever goes . You know we only met last week . It's like whatever goes here is fine , because you know it's . They don't need any particular outcome to be okay and I think there's just such a freedom with that and I can say that from the perspective of living most of my life terrified about what other people think , From having chronic social anxiety for years and years and years , till I was like 30 , till 10 years ago , till I was 31 .
Speaker 2That was when I first kind of really started to understand that . So I've got a very long history of like not feeling that at all , not feeling that confident , despite actually being pretty good at most things . I tell my hand to you know , not , not , not . There's like lack of confidence because I'm not any good at anything . It was the opposite , actually , if I was dedicated to something , I generally got quite good at it .
Speaker 2But this lack of confidence , just because this constant crippling fear of what do they think ? And you know how does this look , you know , and it's , oh man , it's so draining . And when there's when that , when you drop that which comes from awareness and then acceptance , everything that you've said , when you , when you , when you drop that and you just free to be and just express , it's like everything gets easier , just everything . And and I'm not sure I would have believed that if you'd said that to me , you know , a few years ago I really I just couldn't have seen that , I just did , I had no reference for what I was like . And now I'm like oh man , why did it take me till I was 31 to actually have that experience ?
Speaker 1You know , yeah , you have the usually , and usually a trauma or something will crack us into that to wake us up . You know we need to get out of this to happen and I'll give you a contact for me . No , yeah , the wake up calls are serious . Yeah , I'll give a testament to one of the one of the shows you should listen to , versus Maria Callas , who's a spirit side warrior and she was breaking down the phases . That really helped me also evolve a little bit on belief systems for , like , happening to me , the victim , yeah , it's happening for me , which is the big push right now . You'll see everywhere . It's not happening to you , it's happening for you .
Speaker 2That's everywhere .
Speaker 1But there's more phases to it and people don't talk about the last two and when you are able to really do the deep work on yourself for truth and acceptance and control which is a bad word , controlling everything first coping mechanisms , security , safety , things , like we do , all these things for control and once you can go heart , mind , body and soul and outlets and balance , you can get to the next phase , which is not happening to you , not happening for you , but full observer of happening . That happened , you know , and it gets into the thing where , like you know take those three examples , for , like you know , say , there's a something happens with your car , the tire gets weird , there's a piece that gets messed up , it makes the tire get weird , and you crash into somebody and it's dangerous and things go crazy and you have somebody get out of the car and go fuck me . Of course this fucking happens . This should always happen to me . I fucking hate this . I'm calling them suing this and they tell everybody how tragic their life is and if it wasn't for bad luck , they'd have no luck at all . Like you know , the people can't wait . Misery allows company and can't wait to include it with you . Yeah , but then you get the next wave which is happening for me , which is a recognition of holy crap .
Speaker 1This could have been the end of my life . Holy smokes . What was the last thing I said to my loved ones ? Like this is every , every second from this moment on . That could have been it , and every second from this moment on is now a precious gift that I may not have been able to have if I wouldn't have survived this . And now they see the world through a whole new spectrum of gratitude , because now every minute became precious , because you're not supposed to have any more of this would have gone any differently . Holy crap , this really woke me up and I have seen people who were total assholes have like a life threatening experience and become wonderful people because of it . So that's the other side and the other one will go into . I have peace and balance and what is in all aspects and go . That happened and I can accept . This has happened and I'm appreciative and understand . So what shall I do about this ? I have full acceptance in all categories . I'm excited in a new car and I need to tell people I love them more , like I see this . The last one is working through you and you can go .
Speaker 1I want to make sure that this accident never happens anyone else again and I created a campaign to make sure people check this part on their car so it never breaks . So nobody else's lives are in danger . Because my trauma has now become my motivation . The thing that happened to me , for me and has happened in my life now works through me and now I'm able to help others , because I've gone through difficult times to help others go through difficult times . Now you find purpose . Yeah , and so those are the phases on that .
Speaker 1But it had a lot of times . It takes one of these moments that suck , a moment of true pain , a moment of absolute shock where we have to go through our full grieving system of denial , bargaining , anger and depression to wake up . And a lot of times life's rock bottoms or ultimatums are pretty damn gnarly . And I think I want to go into like the last phase for this awesome conversation with you and go into like some of the tragedies that we not only have experienced but we're trying to fight our asses off to prevent , because hope is a fleeting commodity these days and especially in our men's groups , in the men's culture right now , hope and purpose and belonging are lacking and isolation is through the roof and the negative self-talk and the brutality inside of our family members and our loved ones . It seems to be taking a very , very permanent and heavy toll . Is it okay if we go into that direction and you share some of your experience so we can go in and fight this demon together ?
Speaker 2Yeah for sure . So yeah , I think , so , yeah , I mean , I agree , I think that that those stages , you know , sometimes those stages can happen in seconds , actually all of them , and sometimes it takes years , but but there's a , there's a possibility there to to be open to that if you're , if you're willing to pull yourself out of the victim mentality and and and see that there are bigger forces at play , and and and choose . I think as well , choose to make that meaning , because I think the meaning you make of it is always , always subjective . But I think sometimes you can , you can choose to decide you know this , this , this , this didn't happen to me , this is , this is happening for me because I'm choosing it and I'm choosing to stand in that place because it's nicer over here .
Speaker 1Well , that's a training , and that's what's cool about what you're doing and what we do is there's only two kinds of people . You're either trained or untrained . You either know these skills or you don't know them . You know you either have a purpose or reason why you're doing it , or you're fumbling through , hoping that you get it right , and so that's why there's a real need for what this is . If it's OK with you , I'm going to bring up the like .
Speaker 1The side that's been a big mission for us lately , both in you know , veterans and in personal life , is the suicide rate . Right now , it's a serious thing and this is a big purpose right now . I think both of us it's dear to our hearts because we both lost very close people in our lives to this ,
The Suicide Rate and Its Impact
Speaker 1and we continue to have people who are close to us , who have people close to them , who this is claiming at this point . The last numbers that I saw for even just US veterans is 44 a day and for globally , for men , it's one a minute . Even in this conversation , there's been 70 men in this conversation who've taken their lives , and that's just up to this point . Yeah , you know , but you , this is hit you home and unfortunately it was a hard wake up call for life . But I mean , is it OK to go into that , or would you like me to start my end and you finish it ? It's up to you .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I don't mind this . Let's see where we go . I mean , I'm not sure what the rate is here in the UK , but I know that it's 75% of all the suicides of men .
Speaker 1Last I saw it was five to one men or women .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that's about right , which is it's an interesting thing , isn't it ? Because I think certainly there's a lot of criticism aimed at the world of men's work because it's like , well , hang on a minute , we live in a patriarchy and actually the women are the ones who are being you know , who are the victims here , and and and which . I can understand that perspective , but I don't necessarily think that's true . I actually think a lot of the issues that negatively affect women are coming from broken men , which comes back to where we started at the beginning in terms of leverage . But yeah , I mean it's a funny one , because I mean , the suicide that directly impacted me was my sister actually , so that's , that's . That's doesn't quite fit into that , but I do think you know a lot of the , the , the complicating factors that led to her doing that was actually the result of toxic men , basically , but I mean in in a professional context . It is why it was so brutal for me when she took her life just before Christmas last year , because I think , maybe two weeks before possibly I think it was two weeks before I wrote a post on social media about suicide because , as you know , I did a bit of work with a social enterprise here in the UK that works with military veterans and emergency services staff , police , paramedics , fire brigade , and you know a lot of those guys . We don't just work with men but but obviously most of those , those organizations certainly frontline people , predominantly men , but maybe not true for paramedics actually . But I wrote a post about that . That I wrote because I had three different people within about two days having suicidal thoughts and one of them was 11 years old , this little boy , and it just shocked me , you know , and I've done a fair bit of work with suicidal people or very often people who already had a failed attempt . Actually that was often the thing that actually got them to seek some help . And I wrote this poster about it and I think the title of it was we are failing our men . That was it .
Speaker 2One of my clients actually one of my private clients , who lives in Norway and where he lives he's very near a flyover , you know , like a big , big road going over and someone had jumped and he sent me the picture and there's a body out . He woke up and there's , you know , sirens everywhere and police and whatever , and there's a body outside of South and someone had jumped off the bridge and that was the thing . I've got goosebumps talking about this . That was the thing that you know it was quite confronting . And then in the previous two days I had these two other conversations about it and I was like fuck , what's going on here ? And I and I wrote about it and it was the most shared thing I've ever published on on Facebook . I'm not sure how many views it's had now , but it was . It was massive and it obviously touched the nerve for people . You know it was , it was really important and I think people can see it , but we don't know what to do about it . You know , it's like , I think I think everyone would agree that there's an issue here , but it's like where do we start with this ? And then it was . I don't know .
Speaker 2Two weeks after that , I found out about my sister and it was just that . That , for me , was a real existential crisis , to be honest , because part of it for me was like hang on a minute , how , how , how can I be someone who helps prevent that over here and help and help to pull people back from the brink and have done many times and yet I failed there , you know , with the person I love the most , like oh , brutal man , brutal Talk about self judgment , holy shit , that floored me because I was like what am I doing with my life ? How am I , how can I even pretend to be able to help people if I couldn't do that ? And it just stopped me in my tracks for a while ? I've got to be honest , but I don't know . I think it depends whether you want to talk about suicide as a thing or suicide as part of the male dynamic , because I think I think we can keep it as just a thing Like this affects everybody , because it's no different than addiction .
Speaker 1It affects everybody around them . It's everyone you know . So like , even still , if it's five to one , your sister fell into the one like it's , and it's still not a low number . It's just because that that's just the smallest metric of a large number . Yeah , you know , and so no , I think that as a whole is pretty , pretty important for everybody .
Speaker 2Yeah , it is . It is , and I think that's the thing that , or that's one of the things that I . That was a huge realization for me during this period and still , even now , it's like the moment I really started talking about it publicly . It was staggering to me how many people I knew who'd been affected by , but or they knew someone or a friend or something you know the amount of people who had some reference for suicide was shocking .
Speaker 2In in an environment where supposedly I mean , the UK is like officially , like the fifth richest country in the world or something like that We've got one of the high standards of living anywhere . We've got one of the high standards of living in the whole history of humanity . It's like , hang on a minute , we've got so much .
Mental Health Tragedy in Society
Speaker 2We've got this incredible , these incredible lives . Really , as a general rule , the average is very , very high compared to whatever you want to compare it to , and yet this is making sense , and it's making sense for more people . It's making sense for younger and younger people , which is the thing that's so sad about it For me .
Speaker 2It's like I mean 11 year old starting to go that way . What , how , how is that happening ? And I think it just highlights how broken our society is , where that is a very real option for people , where they and I can say this , having sat opposite people who have made a plan , which is very different from a suicidal ideation . By the way , like lots of people , you know , there's a huge thing from a safeguarding perspective there's a massive difference between I've had a suicidal thought which anyone I've ever asked has said yes to that , versus I've made a plan . That's very different and that's one of the things that I've seen from talking to people like that .
Speaker 2It's that it just can become the obvious logical conclusion . It's like they just can't see a way out . It's like this is the only route , this is the only thing that's going to have me feel better , and they feel isolated . They feel like no one understands them . They feel like there's nothing else that they can do . There's no other levers to pull . It's like I've tried it , I've exhausted all options here . Mentally , the logic says that's that's the only course of action .
Speaker 2Now , and I've sat opposite people and have been in this conversation and just been I felt my blood run cold with , just like the logic of it , you know , like just someone going this is it , and they've totally made up their mind and it's like whoa , how do we get to that point , like , how do we ? What's going on in our culture that one is creating the conditions for people to feel so fucking lost that they even consider that in the first place , but then to to feel like there's nothing that they can do to change anything in their life . That , for me , I think it like that's on us , actually , that's on all of us , like we've got to be honest about looking at how we live and what we're doing and how our society works , because that's that , that's the tragedy , I think , and that is , I think it's changeable . You know , I don't think it's destined for more people to be going down that route .
Speaker 2I think we , I think it can be , it can change . But I think it's on all of us to be open to it and to be really honest about looking at how we live and what we're doing and how our society works , because that's that's the tragedy , I think , and that is it can change . But I think it's on all of us to be open to it and to be willing to engage in the dialogue about that and be willing to contribute to that change too .
Speaker 1Yeah , highest honors to like your sister , and like honors to you for going into these fights . Like like highest honors and highest respect , like it's such a massive loss and then a direct connection to it and I've had I've had to go to funerals for friends who , like you know , shot themselves in the car , like that , like I've had to go and be at these funerals and know those moments and it's it's gut wrenching . Do I think that there is hope ? I'm going to give you a glimmer of hope and , like you know , if you don't have this , like you know , I would encourage you to incorporate this into your group , you know , if you don't already .
Speaker 1But like one of my guys who was his name is Phil . I give Phil a lot of credit . He's , when we go through our strengths fills and he's a super , super power , as he's likable . That's like his whole thing . He's just just a sweetheart , he's just a super nice guy , that's just it . And you think that that wouldn't be
The Power of Connection and Belonging
Speaker 1an amazing ability . But ask any introvert if they would like to have your just light , because every one of them is like I would really enjoy that ability , please . Everyone just likes you . Yes , please . Well , phil is like I don't know what to do with that . He was isolated . He's got injuries like really like debilitating injuries , and he's like I'm isolated and alone . And he just started hanging out with our group and so eventually I , like you know , had Phil join and I took care of Phil the joint and he's like how can I get to contribute ? How can I contribute ? He's like I just like to hang out with people . Can I create a hangout group ? Just a hangout group . It doesn't have to go into battle , we don't have to do deep work . We don't have just bullshit . We can talk about fishing and trucks or girls or whatever . Just hang out . Just boys , be boys . I was like , of course , man , and he just runs it , just being likable Phil , that's it . Just be just being a good old boy , just a nice guy .
Speaker 1The suicide calls that I would have to handle , just like you , was maybe one a week or once every two weeks . I'd have a guy in the middle of the night who's just been drinking and sitting next to the gun , saying I don't see another fucking way out . Man , and I know those battles , I've had those conversations and it would be more common than we would like them to be . Yeah , and since we started this like hey , just jump in and hang out group it's been coming up on a year now .
Speaker 1The guys have a place to go where they're hurt . They have a place to go where they belong . They have a place and they go late . Sometimes they go to like midnight or two in the morning . They just stay up and hang out . They can be heard with guys who have gone into battle and know how to fight . They can feel important and valued and they're wanted to be around .
Speaker 1Since we created this group , we haven't had any suicide calls . That's a very important metric because we've had a lot more guys join but been able to feel like there's a place , that they belong and that's enough to keep the demons at bay . You know , when you have a support , where you're valued and you have purpose and you are important , the isolation is a killer and we created a space where , like , you can be heard . It's amazing to me that taking the ability of just I like hanging out with you , is enough to make it . So those calls stopped . How ? What a crazy solution . And that's why I have to give Phil praise , because he was like I just want to make a hangout group and that that was a game changer . Just come hang . I want you to be a part of the . I want to hang out with you . Nobody wants to hang out with me . Nobody gives a shit about me . I want to be a part of the game changer . I want to hang out with me . Nobody gives a shit about me , I do , and it's enough to keep the demons at bay because there's another lever there , there's hope again and there's a place where you can go . I can start working through some of the curses and demons in me . That's a thing and let's go in like the thing for your . I would go solution wise too . The thing like for your sister .
Speaker 1It was a toxic man who was influencing this , but we have to make less toxic men . Yeah , that's part of what we're doing is like then it's going to have to be fixed that part Less toxic guys , more leaders , more generous , giving strong , confident men who look out for their pack . They don't destroy or attack their pack . They protect . Yeah , you don't hurt and demolish your person because you can't deal with your shit . You train with other men to deal with your shit so you can be the strong presider for your pack . Yeah , we need less toxic guys , and that means we have to get over our own bullshit , start getting where we're , not waiting until crisis or everything goes wrong and go . Let me try and improve and get stronger in my leadership with other guys and not call it therapy , not call it counseling , not call it weakness , not call it broken . You just go . It's evolution , man . I got to get stronger , you know , and this is the part where we can do that .
Speaker 1Also , the patriarchy talk . We're going to shove that shit up our asses because who's getting attacked ? Your sons , the 11 year olds . Yeah , these boys nowadays , the young generation , are completely ashamed of being alive because of this feminism talk going so far the other direction . Guys in my age bracket , like my man , say whatever you want , I don't give a shit . You can't break me with that . I was around when they're still on our loyalty and dignity . We still have that , but these young boys who are supposed to be ashamed for existing don't have a fighting chance and being a man is bad , and that's what I'm going to be next .
Speaker 1Boys , statistically 30 and under , have stopped asking women out .
Speaker 1The good guys have stopped playing for multiple reasons not just the gratification of pornography , but also the massive rejection from women having the illusion of options that aren't true .
Speaker 1It's destroying relationships and guys don't want to play anymore .
Speaker 1In fact , they feel ashamed and they get called cat calling or rapey for even asking a girl out in a noble way .
Speaker 1Yeah , this is ruining relationships , and so it's turning on to online gratification from both sides Whether it be create your own only fans account and getting all the attention you want , or posting bikini pictures and getting likes and comments , or guys going into pornography to get instant gratification without rejection . We have to start building our guys back up to make it so that they have the confidence to create families again . Yeah , the confidence and loyalty and dignity to not tear your pack apart and not create more people like your sister , who feel like this is just no hope , like your protector has become your destroyer . We need guys to do better , and I'm with you on this but creating a place of belonging where you can take your armor off and train so that way you can go back with an alpha mentality of building others up and not tearing people down . I feel like that's the only place that we can do to start creating hope again for the next generation and not be ashamed for existing .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that's a , it's a call to arms that I think that's such a powerful position . You know that is you sticking your flag in the sand and going right . This is . This is why I stand for and this is what I think we need to get , and I totally agree on all fronts . I think I mean there's a bunch of different things to possibly say on this . I think , on the isolation piece , that I've never talked to someone who's suicidal , who's suicidal who doesn't feel totally alone , whether or not they have people around them . It's irrespective of that . It's a subjective experience of I'm on my own and you know that that's a killer .
Speaker 2Because we are social creatures , we need human connection . It's vital for us , it's an essential part of life and it's one of the things that we are losing a rapid rate and there's a lot to be said for individualism . You know I've just spent a lot of time in the last year last probably three years around family to support and as hard man , and I've needed my space . You know I've just got back to my house Monday . I've only been back three days after six weeks and I need my , my independence and my space and that kind of individualistic ideal that's in our culture of like , well , I can just do me and that's fine . That actually is toxic , because we need support and we need compassion and we need connection and I see that a lot of the stuff that's happening , like you said , with pornography , social media actually , even though we're kind of hyper connected in a way , you know we're talking across the half the world here to have this conversation . You know that's amazing . We are incredibly connected in that way , but we're not that connected emotionally . Actually , we're losing that community . That . What is the communities that you're in these days ? Like community , that the , even though there are a lot of people around ? I remember first moving to London and being surrounded by people from the country and moving to this massive city and feeling totally alone and I'm like what ? That's weird because there's people everywhere . But it's not that , it's not just proximity to others , it's community and it's that kind of connection .
Speaker 2And I think you know my sister's funeral right , 200 odd people turned up and you know there was so much love , there was so much grief there because all those people loved her and she didn't see that . If she had felt that and she'd felt the immense power of that , I felt the immense power of that , but that's the worst fucking day of my life , man , really . I had to stand in the church and speak to these people and I'd read some words that I'd written and the energy in there was so powerful . It was awful , but it was so powerful because of the connectedness , the compassion , just the mutual pain . You know it was so connecting and it helped me to get through that day and afterwards , you know , the connection from people and the support from people has just been insane . I could feel it . I could just feel it . I was getting hundreds of messages from those different messaging apps and I could feel the energy of that and I was like whoa , that was helping me keep my shit together when you know , the worst thing that could have possibly happened had happened , but she didn't feel that . She just wasn't connected to that . She just didn't know that was there , even though it was .
Speaker 2And I think that's the thing that is on us actually to make sure that people know that . Like you said earlier in the conversation , you know that sometimes going through a trauma or something is the thing that has you . Make sure that you tell people that you care , make sure that you voice your support for someone or your respect for someone or whatever , like that's so needed because it's so lacking , especially for men , because men don't get that , even from their mates often . This is where I think there's a difference between men and women . Where women are actually really good at that . Women will say , you know , to their female friends , how are you , like , they're good at creating that space just to vent and just to connect without having to solve anything , whereas men are .
Speaker 2You can be in a room full of your best mates and feel totally alone , and I felt that before in the past and it's weird and it's uncomfortable because it's like there are people here , but I'm still just feel totally isolated and I think that that's something that is on us . That's on us to help to create the kind of environments where we feel that connection , and that can be as simple as just sending someone a message . You know it can show itself in many ways , but it's so easy to go . Oh , I'm busy and I'm doing my thing . You know I'm doing my life because what's important to me and miss the fact that there are people around you who might be very close to you in proximity , but who are just feeling completely disconnected .
Speaker 1Yeah , I would lean in on , like when I train , like a real alpha , like a real man , like what's a real man ? And we got into the conversation of vulnerability , we got into the conversation of compassion and empathy , like , can a real man go ? Hey , I can love your brother man , I fucking feel you , Like I'm with you on that one and it's an honor and I respect you and I'm proud of you and I believe in you and I'm there for you . And is that weakness ? Is that me being pathetic ? Is that me being a bitch ? It's like I'll challenge anyone on this one . I'm like , no , a real man can say man , it's an honor to care for you and I'll have your back through anything . And that's weakness I'll take the challenge , you know so I had a whole group of like badass dudes , everything from police officers , military guys , linemen , truckers , like just tough dudes .
Speaker 1I'll go on and fucking love you guys . You guys are my brothers , like a group of guys who started off like be a man , be tough , be aggressive , take what you want success , status , power , fame and , by the end , going no , it's connection , man , and I've never had more compassion or more empathy and more love than from the brothers in this kind of group and I think that that's one of those things is raising people to have the awareness that you can be vulnerable , because that moment of prioritization , when you can realize that I didn't send I love you to somebody who matters to me in a long time , may be the deciding factor for them in that week . And we both probably had those moments where I just thought of somebody I cared about , having talked to in a few weeks or a month , and go , hey , thinking about you and you're important to me , and they go fuck , you have no idea how much I needed that today . Yeah , because we're not doing that anymore and I would challenge this another challenge I put out there .
Speaker 1If anybody ever says this bullshit line , I'm really busy , I don't buy it . What you're really saying is you're just a lower priority to me . Yeah , so if you take that one to heart whenever you say sorry , I've been really busy , take an inventory on what you chose to do , because I bet , if I check your screen time , social media was more important for a minute . Because how long does it take to send an appreciation message ? Yeah , especially since you can talk to text .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , exactly .
Speaker 1So yeah , that's a big fight , man yeah .
Speaker 2And that's real strength . You know , that's what I see is real strength . I've also been privileged to do a lot of work with elite military people , special forces you know incredible , incredible people who've done things that you know terrify me .
Speaker 2Just the idea of them terrify me , and they are . They're almost at the extreme end of that .
Embracing Vulnerability in Strong Men
Speaker 2They've been taught to embody this powerful masculine strength of show no fear . Show no weakness . You know , don't drop the guard .
Speaker 2I remember the first time I had a special forces soldier cry on me on and honestly I was terrified because I thought he was pretty edgy and I was like , well , if this guy kicks off , he could just rip my head off , my shoulders like that , like he was a monster . And I remember where he just tear rolled down his face and he admitted that he was struggling with anxiety and you know what that took . So much strength from him . That was strong Courage , yes , so much courage . And this guy's the kind of guy doing like secret behind the enemy lines , kind of stuff that you will never , ever hear about . If he gets caught , his own government will deny him kind of thing . Like he's done stuff that most people would think , well , holy shit , that's courageous . But actually he was good at that stuff , he was great , he was one of the best in the world at that stuff .
Speaker 1No problem .
Speaker 2Run right into a gunfight , no problem yeah no issue , like that's his thing , like he's a beast yeah , but it was that for him to just own his weakness , or what he perceived as weakness , for him to just acknowledge his uncomfortable emotion , which is all it was really . It was just him saying I am not okay , that was all it was . That for him was like he was trembling man , he was like you could see , he was like trying to keep it in and he was just . Eventually he dropped the guard and it was like , yeah , and then that created the environment for ultimately , freedom . Yeah , I see that as real strength .
Speaker 1That's warrior shit right there . Yeah , it is Agreed .
Speaker 2It is In a culture that says that you shouldn't do that and you're going against the grain , you're going against what you've been taught to think is what is being a good , real strong man , desperately trying to be a good man and to go know ? It's the opposite , and it's actually to be open and honest and just acknowledge what's going on and admit that I don't know or I'm stuck , I'm scared or I'm sad or I'm fucking lost or whatever it is . That's the real , that that's what really changes things and and and . That's that and it's such a powerful thing and I you know , if I come back to the idea of leverage , if I think you know , you've got half the world's population of men . If , like , even 10% really started to be that , yeah , the world would change . Man , the world would change .
Speaker 1We're on a mission because we have to , we have to build it . That's what we've started to do and I have no doubt that in the future , with our powers will combine . You know , let's start putting the groups together and let's unify , because we seem to be preaching the same message , with multiple amazing leaders all going the same direction . The purpose is bigger than us .
Speaker 2Oh , for sure , you know .
Speaker 1I think you can relate with me with something where , if we can teach our men to be courageous enough to face the battlefield in their minds , like our legacy is going to , you know , supersede us . My name will be gone long , long Like before the teaching and the strength that we're teaching generations . There will be sons , and then their sons , and then their sons that carry on the belief systems that we're able to instill in this lifetime , and they won't even remember who we are .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1You know , and I think that's where the purpose will lie . And so I have , you know , no need for ego on this one , because my name will be gone in two generations .
Speaker 2But yeah , the teachings will keep going , no different than Epictetus or Marcus Aurelius or Sancti Sancti is the implications of vast and , if nothing else , you know , it will be a lot less pain for for for many , many people . And just to come back to what you said on the male female dynamic , and you know where that's going like women are craving this . They are not . And I don't mean , you know , for their men to be like oh boo boo , I'm having a bad day . I'm not talking that not like this kind of needy victim hood . Oh , you know , it's okay to be okay , kind of thinking that's what your brothers are for . Yeah , I think that's where it can go wrong . Actually , I think that's where some of the men's work is going in the wrong direction of just like , oh , I'm just , I'm ashamed today and I'm just going to sit here at my shame . It's not that .
Speaker 2But what women are craving is men who know themselves and who understand themselves and who are willing to accept all of it . And and that actually from from the perspective and I can say this as a single man , very deliberately so , having been in long term relationships for most of my life , most of my adult life , you know I've spent the last four and a half years single because I that's what's right for me at the moment and been doing this work and doing this work and I tell you it is creating such a different dynamic with women . You want those 11 , you know you're women . That ticks all the 11 things Like . The answer to that is not better chat up lines or you know a better six pack . It's it's knowing yourself and expressing yourself fully . Women need that man and that it's magnetic for them . They want that .
Speaker 1And a man on a purpose is very attractive .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , just a man who knows himself and who's willing to have that dialogue . And I'm with you , man Five weeks . The first five weeks is just tearing into who are you ?
Speaker 1Yeah , that you have to know thyself , know that you're in me and know how to battle the demons and curses you have to know and I'm with you , brother , like this is how this is the way . Yeah , this is the way it's going to be done . Man , highest honors to hang with you , nathaniel . I really appreciate you very much . Enjoy this conversation . I I support you for your work . You know this is a .
Speaker 2This is a platform where I think we're both able to reach as many people as possible .
Speaker 1And I want people to know where to find you and how to work with you . What ? What do they have to do if they're like man ? I resonate with Nathaniel so much . That's the kind of leader I want to . I want to be with . Where do they go and how do they connect with you to be able to work together ? Yeah , my website is my name . I'm a social media user .
Speaker 2I'm a social media user . My website is my name , so it's Nathaniel done dot co , dot UK or dot com , do you actually ? Because I still got the
Connecting With Social Media Users
Speaker 2Aussie domains from when I was down there and they can connect with me through there . I'm also pretty active on Facebook . I'm LinkedIn , so you can find just on my name , so you can , you can find me on there and , yeah , if it resonates , I just encourage people to reach out like take , take a step , you know , just reach out to say hello , start conversation . I'm not for everyone , you know , and I think I think it's important , for if people want to do the work , I think it's important that they find the right person to do it with , and that starts with a conversation . You know , just just express your intent and and be a stand for that and whatever comes from that will come from it .
Speaker 1Hell yeah , I love it . Dude , I'm on the same mission . Together we're stronger . If there's anything I can ever do to support you , I will like . I believe in you and I believe in your purpose . I think we're on the same mission and I'll have your back if you ever need me .
Speaker 2Agreed man . Yeah , thank you yeah of course , good conversation . Thanks , thanks for creating a platform for this level of dialogue , because it is needed and if even one person has listened to this and it's helped them like this has been where far time and and so I think it's an amazing thing that you're doing .
Speaker 1Yeah , we're over an hour and 40 minutes in at this point , which means if you made it this far , you're a legend , and I hope you have an awesome day at your job , because you're probably listening while you're working , and we appreciate you for being with us . Yeah , have a good one , thanks .